[Aria]

Again could be a mis-read but they seem to have omitted the 'post char gen' title from the advancement table, implying that initiation, spell purchase etc can be done at char gen?!  Unless there's now something else in the text that disallows that??

[Michael Chandra]

It really depends on how you read this:

The points
are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as
well as additional funds to get those last gear
pieces you might have missed or an additional
quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).

Under a strict reading, you're not allowed to buy anything other than skills, attributes or nuyen with customization karma.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Again could be a mis-read but they seem to have omitted the 'post char gen' title from the advancement table, implying that initiation, spell purchase etc can be done at char gen?!  Unless there's now something else in the text that disallows that??

yeah the reason for the absence of a distinction is because the prices don't change after character generation.

As Michael Chandra mentioned, the list of things you're allowed to spend karma on is listed in Step 4 of the character generation process.

[Aria]

Think I’m happy to say karma is karma, why wait?! Char gen is a bit arbitrary from a timeline point of view anyway so why have an unbonded foci and why not have one initiation or submersion under your belt?? I get that’s house rule territory but if you spend karma on that you aren’t spending it on something else so it should balance out... or am I missing a fundamental here?

[Michael Chandra]

Chargen isn't Character Advancement. So just like in SR4 and SR5, you can't start initiated, and I think that makes a lot of sense. It also balances out more nicely when people spend their karma to round their character, rather than immediately starting the min-maxing.

As for binding, there I do agree that I think karma should be considered part of the foci expense in chargen.

[GuardDuty]

On the other hand, isn't one of the core design philosophies of 6e to make all the really fun stuff accessible from the word go?  If that's true for equipment and cyber, it would make sense to lump initiation in there too.

[Michael Chandra]

I can understand going with it as houserule, but I suspect it will be significantly imbalancing and also doesn't make that much sense, since the idea was that you can buy all the toys, not that you can do everything from the start. You can't start at skill rank 9 either, or with Expertises, so it makes perfect sense that you can't start Initiated. It also means the mage/adept has less to grow into magic-wise, which can be a bummer.

[GuardDuty]

While what you say is true, initiation isn't analogous to expertise, or high skill ranks.  Initiation has always been analogous to improving the rating or grade of cyberware, which has been made available at character generation if I understand correctly.  Since those are fairly unrestricted (compared to previous editions), initiation shouldn't be unbalancing, theoretically.

[taranion]

It really depends on how you read this:

The points
are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as
well as additional funds to get those last gear
pieces you might have missed or an additional
quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).

Under a strict reading, you're not allowed to buy anything other than skills, attributes or nuyen with customization karma.

I had the same question in July 2019 while developing Genesis, which leads to the following question from Pegasus to Catalyst:

Question: p. 66, Spend Customization Karma: It says here that he Karma points "are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies)." Is that an exhaustive list, i.e. does it mean that you cannot buy spells, complex forms, power points (for mystic adepts) and that you also cannot initiate/submerge with the customization karma?

Answer from J.Hardy: "That is not exhaustive. You can spend it anywhere."

But as we discussed that already in a different thread: Sometimes answers Pegasus got, are not 'official' until published from CGL in any kind. So take it with a grain of salt.

[Michael Chandra]

If you can buy spells in chargen, the entire Magic priority needs to be rewritten for Magicians. The only reason it currently makes sense is if their spells are restricted.

That said, since I consider Initiating something for experienced runners, I wouldn't allow it in chargen.

[penllawen]

I can understand going with it as houserule, but I suspect it will be significantly imbalancing

Initiation is costs 10+(new grade) karma. If you disallow it during chargen, the mage will have enough karma to do it after (at most) a couple of runs anyway. I don't see why moving the point at where they can be initiate grade 1 by a few sessions can be "significantly imbalancing." If it's unbalancing fresh out of chargen, it's gonna be unbalancing after three runs, too.

Edit - I missed this one:

If you can buy spells in chargen, the entire Magic priority needs to be rewritten for Magicians. The only reason it currently makes sense is if their spells are restricted.

This makes no sense. A mage character can start buying spells after one run. If the ability to buy spells at chargen is unbalancing, then the ability to buy them after one run can't be balanced either. There's nothing special about where you draw the line between "just after chargen" and "after one run".

[penllawen]

While what you say is true, initiation isn't analogous to expertise, or high skill ranks.  Initiation has always been analogous to improving the rating or grade of cyberware, which has been made available at character generation if I understand correctly.  Since those are fairly unrestricted (compared to previous editions), initiation shouldn't be unbalancing, theoretically.

It also plays a significant role in widening the mage's toolbox via metamagics, lots of which have pretty important in-game mechanics. Flexible Signature and Masking can be crucial in a black trenchcoat game, for example. Quickening is critical at a certain sort of high-powered table (although I personally think it should be yeeted into the sun.) Spell Shaping is pretty important for tactical flexibility. These aren't mere nice-to-haves for mages.

[Finstersang]

If you can buy spells in chargen, the entire Magic priority needs to be rewritten for Magicians. The only reason it currently makes sense is if their spells are restricted.

That said, since I consider Initiating something for experienced runners, I wouldn't allow it in chargen.

Nothing about 6th Editions priorities makes much sense, so why should the Magic column be an exeption?
Good lord, I hope that Karmagen comes back so more peoply abandon that mess ... 

That being said, I don´t see any balancing problem at all with mages being able to buy spells at chargen. If you really want to set off the additional spells off from the spells from the priority table: Why not make it mandatory to buy the spell formular as well? Thats my current houserule for Karma-bought spells at chargen (I transferred that one over to my improvised Karmagen System as well.)

Initiation (and Submersion) is on another page, though. IMO, that should continue to be a big step in character advancement. In fact, I think that it´s way to easy right now, especially when you look at the severely overpowered option to get one P.P. as an Adept.

(It doesn´t help that the balancing for the different Initiaton / Submersion Techniques generally is all over the place, either. I mean, just look at the Fixation Metamagic. Why does that even exist? As a final reminder that Alchemy will never be a worthwhile option?)

[Lormyr]

The bottom line is this: limiting options on character building is less fun than opening options.

Street samurai can buy any ware they want.
Riggers can buy any vehicles, drones, and consoles they want.
Deckers can buy any decks they want.
Adepts can buy power points, effectively disregarding the priority table entirely.

Open up spells for mages, complex forms for technomancers, and allow mystic adepts to get their full 6 magic points to split. As it stands you have not successfully balanced the archetypes against themselves, or even balanced the priority selections against themselves, so what are we trying to accomplish here?

[skalchemist]

The bottom line is this: limiting options on character building is less fun than opening options.

Lorymyr, I get your point, but this is a personal preference.  Some people, including myself, enjoy having to make hard decisions at char gen because our options are limited, not just in Shadowrun but in many other games. 

I'm not saying you are wrong to want a system that is more open and allows more options.  I'm also not saying that the current system in 6E has no problems or issues; it certainly does.  I'm just saying this is another place where it is hard to please everyone with a game design. 

EDIT: I'm not talking about limiting options to "balance" anything; I'm honestly pretty skeptical of that whole concept.  I'm talking about limiting options so that players have to make difficult choices when making their characters and really think about what they care about the most.  I personally like that in RPGs; I find I am usually more creative when I am working within a set of tight limits than when I have a blank sheet of paper in front of me.  In this sense, I like conceptually the idea of the priority system a lot, although its implementation leaves a lot to be desired.