[Banshee]

I've seen this pop up a few times here and there in various discussions but don't quite understand.

It appears as people thing is some point where a Host provides immunity to all matrix actions.

Con someone please ...
1. Confirm what exactly is the event horizon, as perceived?
2. What and where in the book is the text that supports this?

Reason..  because there is no intention of any kind of immunity and I want to clear it up either by errata or official FAQ, but need to know what to target.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

6we is admittedly less specific on the topic, but 5e established that you can't perceive an icon inside a host unless you're also inside that same host.  And vice versa.

So you're not technically immune to hacking actions across what I call the "event horizon", but if you're not a perceivable target then you can't be targeted and it ends up being in effect immunity to many/most actions.

[Banshee]

6we is admittedly less specific on the topic, but 5e established that you can't perceive an icon inside a host unless you're also inside that same host.  And vice versa.

So you're not technically immune to hacking actions across what I call the "event horizon", but if you're not a perceivable target then you can't be targeted and it ends up being in effect immunity to many/most actions.

So ... it's a perception based on how 5e was? Not some misinterpretation of what is written in 6we?

That would mean it just clarification not errata.

EDIT: Xenon - I know you're fairly active and involved in 6we matrix discussions over on Reddit. Can you confirm this?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well there IS the following line in 6we:

The virtual space in a host is separate from the
Matrix at large, and any icons on that host are not
accessible unless expressly part of a public-facing
side.

That's implicitly saying "icons inside the host can't be hacked by personas outside the host... UNLESS those icons are in an explicit 'can still be hacked' zone of that host"...

Granted it's pure assumption that the relationship would be reciprocal.  However it'd be terrible game balance though if the spider inside a host could A) see and B) hack the matrix icons of people penetrating a site but are not inside that same host while being untouchable by those same runners.

[Banshee]

Well there IS the following line in 6we:

The virtual space in a host is separate from the
Matrix at large, and any icons on that host are not
accessible unless expressly part of a public-facing
side.

That's implicitly saying "icons inside the host can't be hacked by personas outside the host... UNLESS those icons are in an explicit 'can still be hacked' zone of that host"...

Granted it's pure assumption that the relationship would be reciprocal.  However it'd be terrible game balance though if the spider inside a host could A) see and B) hack the matrix icons of people penetrating a site but are not inside that same host.

See that's what I thought might be the source and I was just being prejudice based on knowing what I was thinking.

My intention is not any sort of immunity in any fashion but more of a hidden behind the Host "event horizon". Which requires actually spending time and actions either making matrix perception checks to see what's on the other side or gaining access.

[Hobbes]

See that's what I thought might be the source and I was just being prejudice based on knowing what I was thinking.

My intention is not any sort of immunity in any fashion but more of a hidden behind the Host "event horizon". Which requires actually spending time and actions either making matrix perception checks to see what's on the other side or gaining access.

And now its time for another round of .... FAQ!... OR!....ERRAAATAAA!!!!     

Anyway, yeah.  Otherwise all my runners are logged into the public library.  Heck with you mr. spider. 

I'm not sure if "accessible" can be FAQ'd into mechanically equal Running Silent with the Host's Sleaze Rating.  Houseruled.  RAI.  Expressly intended.  Again, I'm pretty sure the Matrix FAQ is going to be a bunch of links to Banshee's posts.  Thanks for the clarifications, they are immensely helpful.  We appreciate the willingness to contribute to the open community discussions. 

[Xenon]

So ... it's a perception based on how 5e was? Not some misinterpretation of what is written in 6we?

A little bit of both I'd say.


There are basically only two sentences talking about how the Host and its Devices interact in this edition:

SR6 p. 185 Hosts
The virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large, and any icons on that host are not accessible unless expressly part of a public-facing side....

This could be read as if icons (such as devices?) on a host are not accessible ('immune'?) because the virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large.


Followed by this:

SR6 p. 185 Hosts
...Gaining access to a host will allow interaction with the icons and devices on the inside.

This could, wrongly, be read as if in order to allow interaction with icons and devices on the 'inside' you:

• Need to hack (brute force / probe+backdoor entry) the Host
• Then you need to take the Enter Host action to get to the 'insides' of the Host, the virtual space which is separate from the Matrix at large.
• Once 'inside' this virtual space which is separate from the Matrix at large you either hack specific icons and specific devices on the inside you want User or Admin access to - or you directly take Outsider actions on them, without first gaining User or Admin access.

That access is actually based on network could perhaps be spelled out better in the book. I currently don't feel I have any good page reference to give people when they challenge me on this :-/

My intention is not any sort of immunity in any fashion but more of a hidden behind the Host "event horizon". Which requires actually spending time and actions either making matrix perception checks to see what's on the other side or gaining access.

What are then the rules of engagement for IC in this edition?

Can we spot IC running in a Host before we even have access on the Host network?
Can we Data Spike it....? Can Killer IC running on the Host attack us back...?

[Banshee]

So ... it's a perception based on how 5e was? Not some misinterpretation of what is written in 6we?

A little bit of both I'd say.


There are basically only two sentences talking about how the Host and its Devices interact in this edition:

SR6 p. 185 Hosts
The virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large, and any icons on that host are not accessible unless expressly part of a public-facing side....

This could be read as if icons (such as devices?) on a host are not accessible ('immune'?) because the virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large.


Followed by this:

SR6 p. 185 Hosts
...Gaining access to a host will allow interaction with the icons and devices on the inside.

This could, wrongly, be read as if in order to allow interaction with icons and devices on the 'inside' you:

• Need to hack (brute force / probe+backdoor entry) the Host
• Then you need to take the Enter Host action to get to the 'insides' of the Host, the virtual space which is separate from the Matrix at large.
• Once 'inside' this virtual space which is separate from the Matrix at large you either hack specific icons and specific devices on the inside you want User or Admin access to - or you directly take Outsider actions on them, without first gaining User or Admin access.

That access is actually based on network could perhaps be spelled out better in the book. I currently don't feel I have any good page reference to give people when they challenge me on this :-/

My intention is not any sort of immunity in any fashion but more of a hidden behind the Host "event horizon". Which requires actually spending time and actions either making matrix perception checks to see what's on the other side or gaining access.

What are then the rules of engagement for IC in this edition?

Can we spot IC running in a Host before we even have access on the Host network?
Can we Data Spike it....? Can Killer IC running on the Host attack us back...?

Thanks for your input... I need to evaluate and make sure I have some blessings before I post that but I have an idea on how to clarify

[Sugarpink]

So ... it's a perception based on how 5e was? Not some misinterpretation of what is written in 6we?

A little bit of both I'd say.


There are basically only two sentences talking about how the Host and its Devices interact in this edition:

SR6 p. 185 Hosts
The virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large, and any icons on that host are not accessible unless expressly part of a public-facing side....

This could be read as if icons (such as devices?) on a host are not accessible ('immune'?) because the virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large.


Followed by this:

SR6 p. 185 Hosts
...Gaining access to a host will allow interaction with the icons and devices on the inside.

This could, wrongly, be read as if in order to allow interaction with icons and devices on the 'inside' you:

• Need to hack (brute force / probe+backdoor entry) the Host
• Then you need to take the Enter Host action to get to the 'insides' of the Host, the virtual space which is separate from the Matrix at large.
• Once 'inside' this virtual space which is separate from the Matrix at large you either hack specific icons and specific devices on the inside you want User or Admin access to - or you directly take Outsider actions on them, without first gaining User or Admin access.

That access is actually based on network could perhaps be spelled out better in the book. I currently don't feel I have any good page reference to give people when they challenge me on this :-/

My intention is not any sort of immunity in any fashion but more of a hidden behind the Host "event horizon". Which requires actually spending time and actions either making matrix perception checks to see what's on the other side or gaining access.

What are then the rules of engagement for IC in this edition?

Can we spot IC running in a Host before we even have access on the Host network?
Can we Data Spike it....? Can Killer IC running on the Host attack us back...?

Thanks for your input... I need to evaluate and make sure I have some blessings before I post that but I have an idea on how to clarify

So all of this means that I can hack devices that are inside a host, even without gaining access to that host? What would even be the purpose of hacking into a host then? Am I missing something?

Edit: Also, if Icons inside a host are not unhackable from the outside, does a Host provide any protection to the icons inside it in that scenario?

[Xenon]

We are waiting for Banshee to clarify I guess.


Having said that, the intent seem to be that wireless devices are reachable from the Matrix as long as we talk about actions that only require Outsider access and devices that are connected to the 'outer layer' Host. Many devices (such as elevators, lights, maglocks, vending machines etc) seem to be immediately obvious while other devices (cameras, sensors, alarms etc) might require an opposed matrix perception test to be spotted. Devices slaved to a Host use the attributes of the Host when defending.

It seem as if you normally take the Probe action while you are still considered to be on the 'outside' (where I personally like to think IC can't touch you). And it also seem as if you are on the 'outside' right up until you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action. You are not required to take the 'Backdoor Entry' action right after your Probe action. You can decide to take the action later. However, after you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action "to gain illicit entry into a host" it seem as if you are now considered to be on the 'inside'.

It seem as if after you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action you now open up User and Admin access actions (such as searching for files located inside the Host, directly controlling devices slaved to the host etc).

I like to think that the 'Backdoor Entry' action is actually both exploiting the glitch you just discovered while probing the network and gaining the effect of the 'Enter Host' action - at the same time.


...and by extension I also like to think (again my personal thoughts on the matter) that once you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action you are also potentially exposed to IC.



If that make sense to anyone (it does to me) :-)

[Xenon]

The above (at least the first part) is very similar to how it worked in SR5, btw.

Wireless devices in SR5 were always located on a Grid, never actually inside a Host. Just that if you were inside a Host that a wireless device was slaved to then you would be considered directly connected to the device (even though it was still out on a Grid).

That meant that wireless devices were reachable from the Matrix as long as we talk about actions that didn't require any marks on the device (such as Spoof Command, Data Spike, Matrix Perception, Brute Force, Hack on the Fly, ...). Devices within 100 meters that was not running silent was immediately obvious. Devices that was running silent (no matter how far away) required an opposed matrix perception test to be spotted (and if slaved to a Host they would use the Sleaze rating of the Host when opposing).

[Michael Chandra]

So all of this means that I can hack devices that are inside a host, even without gaining access to that host? What would even be the purpose of hacking into a host then? Am I missing something?

Edit: Also, if Icons inside a host are not unhackable from the outside, does a Host provide any protection to the icons inside it in that scenario?

You can only go 1 Host deeper hacking-wise, so if the Host is layered, you need to get in. Furthermore, Hash Checks require User access, so for that you need to get in first. Edit File also is User/Admin, so unless you're ready to target each file individually first, I imagine you need to enter the Host to easily deal with them.

[Banshee]

We are waiting for Banshee to clarify I guess.


Having said that, the intent seem to be that wireless devices are reachable from the Matrix as long as we talk about actions that only require Outsider access and devices that are connected to the 'outer layer' Host. Many devices (such as elevators, lights, maglocks, vending machines etc) seem to be immediately obvious while other devices (cameras, sensors, alarms etc) might require an opposed matrix perception test to be spotted. Devices slaved to a Host use the attributes of the Host when defending.

It seem as if you normally take the Probe action while you are still considered to be on the 'outside' (where I personally like to think IC can't touch you). And it also seem as if you are on the 'outside' right up until you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action. You are not required to take the 'Backdoor Entry' action right after your Probe action. You can decide to take the action later. However, after you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action "to gain illicit entry into a host" it seem as if you are now considered to be on the 'inside'.

It seem as if after you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action you now open up User and Admin access actions (such as searching for files located inside the Host, directly controlling devices slaved to the host etc).

I like to think that the 'Backdoor Entry' action is actually both exploiting the glitch you just discovered while probing the network and gaining the effect of the 'Enter Host' action - at the same time.


...and by extension I also like to think (again my personal thoughts on the matter) that once you successfully take the 'Backdoor Entry' action you are also potentially exposed to IC.



If that make sense to anyone (it does to me) :-)

Yes this is the direction I want to go ... but looking at second order operations and the effects.

Then I'm going to be writing up a matrix faq to post her adxwell

[Hobbes]

So all of this means that I can hack devices that are inside a host, even without gaining access to that host? What would even be the purpose of hacking into a host then? Am I missing something?

Edit: Also, if Icons inside a host are not unhackable from the outside, does a Host provide any protection to the icons inside it in that scenario?

You can only go 1 Host deeper hacking-wise, so if the Host is layered, you need to get in. Furthermore, Hash Checks require User access, so for that you need to get in first. Edit File also is User/Admin, so unless you're ready to target each file individually first, I imagine you need to enter the Host to easily deal with them.

I was going to check my book, but Michael got there first.  File Icons you'll almost certainly need to get in the Host to deal with effectively.  Not even Editor CF gets around it unless there is just one File Icon on the Host for you to target.  Still need to Enter Host at some point and do a Hash Check, really no way around that if you need to do something to a File Icon.

[Finstersang]

So all of this means that I can hack devices that are inside a host, even without gaining access to that host? What would even be the purpose of hacking into a host then? Am I missing something?

Edit: Also, if Icons inside a host are not unhackable from the outside, does a Host provide any protection to the icons inside it in that scenario?

You can only go 1 Host deeper hacking-wise, so if the Host is layered, you need to get in. Furthermore, Hash Checks require User access, so for that you need to get in first. Edit File also is User/Admin, so unless you're ready to target each file individually first, I imagine you need to enter the Host to easily deal with them.

Seems like a good direction for further shaping of the (still "malleable"  ) Matrix/Host rules. Part of the current ambiguity here comes from the phrase "getting access", which some interpret as "getting the right to enter" and some as just "entering". In the case of hosts, the latter makes more sense - and not just because there needs to be reasons to actually enter a host so the Black IC doesn´t get bored.

Just look at the rest of the terminology: The term "Outsider Access" implies that Matrix Actions like Data Spikes etc. can be done from outside the host, i.e. without entering it and exposing yourself to IC. But at the same time, "Outsider Access" also implies that the higher Access Levels actually require you to enter the host - and not just to have the "right" to do so.

And then there´s "Backdoor Entry". With a name like that, it would be super counterintuitive if that action doesn´t actually make you enter the host. To me, that sounds like the sneaky, illegal Version of "Enter host". And to that, you just have to add "Brute Force" as the noisy, illegal alternative (Yes, these two also let you access other Networks. But when it comes to hosts, they should give you the same effect as "Enter Host", just illegal).