[Sliver]

Your melee expert needs to realize that "winning" does not mean standing on top of the bloody corpses of his enemies in every run; that's going to earn him a major backlash. He should know that the logic of this scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark applies, and to ignore that is foolishness when guns are cheap and plentiful.

Make him rely on his secondary skills to get the job done. Consider the idea that blood and bodies will compromise a job, making the ability to subdue opposition with nonlethal/less-lethal options a necessity. If he doesn't have anything notable there, then he's built a one trick pony and should consider retiring the old character for a fresh start.

In fact, I just read about the notoriety today, and will start implementing that. Hopefully I can knock his character down a few pegs by shoving some of that in the campaigns. Anyways, if the NPC's are shooting at him, the runs usually take place inside. He can simply run up to them after one shot (That he will probably end up dodging, since he has a dodge of like 15). and murder them in a single strike.

On another note, I not only hate his character in a gameplay sense, but the character itself is annoying. His last character was an ex-IRA weapons dealer, this one is an 18-year old schoolgirl samurai who speaks "weaboo" japanese. Shit.

[Stahlseele]

Bwahahahaahahaha!
You have a Troll in your Group! ^^

[Charybdis]

In fact, I just read about the notoriety today, and will start implementing that. Hopefully I can knock his character down a few pegs by shoving some of that in the campaigns. Anyways, if the NPC's are shooting at him, the runs usually take place inside. He can simply run up to them after one shot (That he will probably end up dodging, since he has a dodge of like 15). and murder them in a single strike.

On another note, I not only hate his character in a gameplay sense, but the character itself is annoying. His last character was an ex-IRA weapons dealer, this one is an 18-year old schoolgirl samurai who speaks "weaboo" japanese. Shit.

A) How is he getting 15 dice to dodge firearms? You don't get to use your dodge/gymnastics skill vs Guns unless using Full Defense (which means he doesn't get to attack)

B) In combat, depending on his numpber of IP's, you can only move 15M per turn (approximately).
- With 2 IP's that means he moves 7m per action
- With 3IP's, it's 5m
- etc etc

We have some hard-core melee junkies in our group, but they are rightfully scared of 3-4 gangers at the end of the alley (say, 20m) with Uzi's. When you combine
- short wide bursts (-2 to dodging) with
- dodging multiple attacks (cumulative -1 for each additional attack) and
- a combat drug or two (for additional Ganger actions),
you can cut down pretty tough PC's before they can close into Melee range (especially if you add funky ammo like APDS or Ex-Ex... but that's probably not Ganger level)
 Note: While your physad of doom is in melee combat, he/she takes some serious penalties to dodge other ranged attacks (-3 to defense pool from memory)... so if you spread your targets out, a few guys can take accrate potshots at him/her while your decoy NPC gets munched in melee...

C) You said you just switched over...I'm assuming it's the same SR3 character moved into SR4 (as I can't see how an entry-level PC begins with a F5 weapon focus). Regardless, there are several ways you can remove that focus from the equation:
- A spirit or projecting mage can deactivate the focus via Astral combat while sitting safely on the Astral plane. as the focus is dual natured, but the physad is not. Technically, an evil, evil mage/spirit could destroy that focus, but would prefer to deactivate it if they think they'll be able to keep it as loot afterwards...a F5 foci is awesome loot...
- Imps.... Running Wild Sourcebook, p.180. These little buggers infect a focus, and basically a force 5 Imp could render the focus magically useless at-will, unless the PC starts paying Karma to the imp for the privilege of using [i][b]IT'S[/b][/i] focus... This can be as annoying (or outright dangerous) as you, the GM, want to make it. And there is absolutely nothing the Physad can do about it except try to hire a mage to fix the issue...which is not easily remedied...Imps get banishment resistance and all sorts of defensive powers.... they SUCK!..perfect for annoying PC's

D) Others have mentioned it, but it's important enough to say again: Use magic on them! SR4 phys-ads do not get the Counterspelling skill, so any decent mage can mess with a melee-physad six-ways from Sunday. Just for fun (/evil  ), use some Mental manipulations so he attacks his team-mates...just once.

E) Spirit combat:  Yes yes, melee will munch the spirit, I heard you. No, ignore that and have a spirit with Ranged attacks (most elementals etc) hover 5m up, out of melee reach, and just harass this guy to death. Confusion powers, Innate Flamethrower spells etc

Note: Spirits have innate 3D movement, and it annoys me to tears when GM's just use spirits as melee fodder. There are so many cleverer ways to destroy runners via Spirit powers, especially from Range.

[James McMurray]

A) How is he getting 15 dice to dodge firearms? You don't get to use your dodge/gymnastics skill vs Guns unless using Full Defense (which means he doesn't get to attack)

Combat Sense can give a starting character 6 dice. The shifter in our group has 15 dodge dice: 9 Reaction + 6 Combat Sense. It's even better for surprise, since the other guy in very unlikely to have 20 dice, meaning you get a free shot practically every combat.

[Sliver]

A) Oh, so you only get your reaction to dodge if you don't go on full defense? I wasn't aware of that
B) How do IP's factor into the equation? I thought your move speed each turn is based off of Agility
C) Nope, the players all wanted to make new characters. I saw nothing in the Foci section that limited the force of it. I had to limit him myself to his magic rating of 5.
D) I'm still in the middle of completely understanding the SR4 book, and none of my players use magic. I'm looking into it now.
E) Again, I'm still looking into spirits/sprites. I'll finish those when I'm done understanding the Matrix.

[Charybdis]

A) How is he getting 15 dice to dodge firearms? You don't get to use your dodge/gymnastics skill vs Guns unless using Full Defense (which means he doesn't get to attack)

Combat Sense can give a starting character 6 dice. The shifter in our group has 15 dodge dice: 9 Reaction + 6 Combat Sense. It's even better for surprise, since the other guy in very unlikely to have 20 dice, meaning you get a free shot practically every combat.

I understand that it 'can' happen...our group's melee Physad has a reaction of 10 and a few ranks in combat sense for 13 dodge dice.

However when combining with multiple IP's and other powers, it's hard to get Max ranks in combat sense as well.
Our PA has:
- Improved Reflexes 3 (4PP)
- 3 Ranks of Combat Sense (1.5PP)
 another 1.5PP of assorted powers (improved senses, nimble fingers, improved athletic skills etc)

A beginning Physad just can't have all this stuff at once:
A) Karma on a F5 focus (15 Karma/BP at character creation
B) Moneyon the focus (50k)
C) plus whatever house-rules and (hopefully) positive qualities were required to get an item with an availability of 25R)
so said Physad would be unlikely to also have a maxed out rank in anything

Of course, if this is an Uber campaign, all such rules go out the window, and it's time to bring in either
-  A hovering dragon with Blasting, poisonous or <insert elemental effect here>, as well as +2 reach so it can attack, but stay out of normal PC range.
- a Great Dragon in Melee combat with 30'ish dice in Melee and Twist Fate powers to both stop the PC using edge, and force the PC to reroll any successes

[Operator]

A) Oh, so you only get your reaction to dodge if you don't go on full defense? I wasn't aware of that
B) How do IP's factor into the equation? I thought your move speed each turn is based off of Agility
C) Nope, the players all wanted to make new characters. I saw nothing in the Foci section that limited the force of it. I had to limit him myself to his magic rating of 5.
D) I'm still in the middle of completely understanding the SR4 book, and none of my players use magic. I'm looking into it now.
E) Again, I'm still looking into spirits/sprites. I'll finish those when I'm done understanding the Matrix.

A) Reaction + melee skill -or- Dodge -or- Gymnastics in melee combat, Reaction only in ranged combat.

B) All active combatants will get to act at least once in a combat turn before additional passes are examined. Unless a character explicitly has Reflex-boosting abilities, spells or cyberware/bioware then they will only have 1 initiative pass per turn. If your samurai girl doesn't have that feature then she is quite vulnerable to being singled out for a beating.

Regular movement speed is fixed. Humans move at a walk rate of 10 meters/turn, or 25 when running. If multiple IPs are effect then you divide the movement rate appropriately as it corresponds to the current pass. Imagine that if some gun-toting mooks are 15 meters away and the samurai girl runs at them, assuming she has four IPs, then she isn't going to be able to melee them until her third pass since she has only covered 12.5 meters at the second pass.

C) Starting new, a character should not be able to get a force 5 (Avail 25) weapon focus. At most a force 2 weapon foci (Avail 10) is admissible at character generation.

D) If they don't have a mage to back them up with counterspelling, then you can and should make them feel the hurt from this avenue.

[Charybdis]

A) Oh, so you only get your reaction to dodge if you don't go on full defense? I wasn't aware of that
B) How do IP's factor into the equation? I thought your move speed each turn is based off of Agility
C) Nope, the players all wanted to make new characters. I saw nothing in the Foci section that limited the force of it. I had to limit him myself to his magic rating of 5.
D) I'm still in the middle of completely understanding the SR4 book, and none of my players use magic. I'm looking into it now.
E) Again, I'm still looking into spirits/sprites. I'll finish those when I'm done understanding the Matrix.

A) vs Ranged attacks (eg Firearms) that's correct. It's just Reaction (SR4A p.153)
B) Nope. SR4A p.149
C) The limit is in the Starting notes and Availability rules: PC's can only begin play with items of Availbility of 12 or lower (SR4A p.86). Weapon Foci have an availability of Force x 5 (SR4A p.348).
Note1: There is a background Positive Qualities (Restricted Gear from the Runner's Companion sourcebook) a PC can get to start with a single item of Availability 20, but even that limits Weapon Foci to Force 4.
Note2: A starting PC must spend BP to bond with the focus (equal to the Karma cost).. SR4A p.87
D) Magic is scary I love it...
E) Spirits are nothing to do with Sprites. Spirits are magical (and nothing to do with the matrix). Sprites are kind of like Matrix Spirits (OK, hardcore technomancers are going to flame me for that statement, but as a guideline, it's a far call!  ) and unless you have a technomancer in the group, you can pretty much ignore Sprites for while.

Edit: Dammit! Ninja'ed for like the 3rd time today! Must.Type.Faster! Curse you, Operator! Curse youuuu!... but +1 'cause I seriously laughed....

[Operator]

Edit: Dammit! Ninja'ed for like the 3rd time today! Must.Type.Faster! Curse you, Operator! Curse youuuu!... but +1 'cause I seriously laughed....

When I get to typing things, I'm a fiend.

[Charybdis]

Edit: Dammit! Ninja'ed for like the 3rd time today! Must.Type.Faster! Curse you, Operator! Curse youuuu!... but +1 'cause I seriously laughed....

When I get to typing things, I'm a fiend.

Obviously My problem is I've had a few brain farts recently and have misquoted several rules in thread discussions.

Ergo for the last few days I've been looking up rules pages before posting...hence epic ninja'ing ...

[Sliver]

Okay, so this information is really quite helpful.

1. Take distance into account
2. Increase his notoriety so it would make sense why more of their opponents know of his tricks
3. Reduce his foci, I wasn't aware of the availability limit or the nuyen cost.
4. Keep him from rolling dodge with his reaction, this should allow me to actually hit him, making him a glass tank
5. Make the standard success rolls only include 5 and 6. This should help as well.

Shadowrun is my absolute favorite game. I like D&D, but I'd sit down and play Shadowrun every day if I could. I'm working on some new characters and campaigns, and I can see myself being very active on this forum. I'm so happy that the forum is still active and the game is still popular. I'd hate to see it end just when it starts getting good, you know?

Thanks to everyone that helped me out. Especially for bearing with me and my lack of knowledge considering my recent switch (After a lot of convincing towards the group)

On another note, I have two questions. 1) Why is it that a melee attack is a complex action? I mean, you can attack multiple targets, but you can't attack the same target twice in the same turn with a +2 modifier? 2) Do any of you guys know of a way to find some new players? The group is starting to spread thin, and I'm having a hard time finding new reliable people to play with.

[Chrona]

1) Why is it that a melee attack is a complex action? I mean, you can attack multiple targets, but you can't attack the same target twice in the same turn with a +2 modifier? This was debated recently in a thread of mine, it's partly assuming some combo to land a hit, partly balance, but annoying.

2) Do any of you guys know of a way to find some new players? The group is starting to spread thin, and I'm having a hard time finding new reliable people to play with. http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?board=20.0
[/quote]

[Charybdis]

1) Why is it that a melee attack is a complex action? I mean, you can attack multiple targets, but you can't attack the same target twice in the same turn with a +2 modifier? This was debated recently in a thread of mine, it's partly assuming some combo to land a hit, partly balance, but annoying.

Actually, I much prefer SR4 melee combat rules.
- Also, if trying to disengage from Melee goon A, Goon A normally gets a free hit in, so you can still get multiple attacks, just not all as part of the same Complex action

And melee combinations are a matter of perspective... If you're fighting a Goon with a single initiative pass, and your PC has 2-3 (which is pretty standard for a Melee specialist)., then you can hit the goon 2-3 times before he can really do anything.... that's a nice combination straight out of the box.

And if you want to have some more instant combinations, just get some of the Maneuver's described in the arsenal sourcebook, such as:
- Follow-up - You hit the target, and can then use your next initiative pass as an immediate follow-up...that's a two-hit combination right there
- Sweep attack - Normally, if you attack to knockdown, it's just a pushover, no damage. With this maneuver it's the equivalent of always pushing them over then dropping the elbow or sinking the boot in.... as a single complex action that's a neat combination.
Note: If you're really nasty, you can use Sweep first, and then utilise Follow-up.... right there is an instant three hit combo leaving an opponent prone and in really bad shape...

IMHO, Melee combat has really improved under SR4 rules. It used to be an instand grinding machine, but now at least you need to put some BP/Karma into performing an insta-kill

And if you're an unarmed numpty (*cough* like me *cough*) if you have a spare IP you can cinematically risk punching someone without them automatically killing you as an instant counterattack... they get to laugh at your feeble attempt first, and THEN knock you into the next room....

[Tagz]

There's two things I can suggest to help as well.

One is pretty much what was said before about a low body count, but make it critical.  For instance, the Johnson wants some embarrassing data destroyed from his own office.  He's friendly with everyone there, including the security staff.  He can give detailed info and assistance, but he won't pay if anyone is killed or permanently hurt.

The other thing you can do is just not try and challenge him.  If it's just one player in the batch that's a combat monster, raising the challenge to meet him is making things hard for everyone else.  Instead you can make enemies that are a challenge to the group as an average.
He'll squish them, sure.  Before he starts combat count his dicepool.  If he can buy enough hits to beat the opposition's defenses, don't even bother to look at his dice or your own.  Just let him pick who he wants to kill and say he's dead.  No anger, no passive aggression, just move on to the next player.
One: it's a time saver in combat, two: if he complains show him how statistically these guys can't survive a hit so you just don't want to waste time, three: he'll probably get bored with his own character since it becomes "I kill an orc.".
It's what I did.  He toned it down with his next character.

[John Shull]

My suggestion would be to write him as Batman and just go with it.  He seems to really love his character so just make him play it out.  Once you just accept he will dominate average combatants he becomes David Carridine in Kung Fu.  Fighting only gets you so far in adventures and if that's the part he likes to play let him do his part.  Sometimes the adventure is going to bench him from the out set and he has to play fish out of water with that.  Exorcising evil spirit out of a house, seducing info from opposition, deductive work of any kind, car chases, etc.  Just because he has a strong nitche doesn't mean you can't let him have that one and let other PC's shine in others roles.  I had a phys ad Triad assassinin my game who everyone thought was Batman after awhile.  He was great at advancing the story so far and then the others could step up.  His best stop was beating a flying invisible mage out of the air by using 3 frozen Snickers bars as projectiles in Grand Central Station.  Mage lost his concentration and passed out on his bounce.  Really fired up the crew and they had a awesome time that session.