[Tsuzua]

Thanks for the praise everyone.     

You do run into the enhancement cap if you don't have a torso with the 10 agility elf.  If you get one though then you can totally have 15 agility.  Personally, high agility elves are better off going with Muscle Toner and Superthyroid than cyberarms though.

As for Metagenetic Improvement, it's basically 10 BP.  The SURGE quality provides BP cost * 2 in positive qualities.  So SURGE II costs 10 BP and gives you 20 BP that can spent on positive qualities off a certain list.   So you get SURGE II for 10 BP, spend the 20 BP you then get on Metagentic Improvement.  You get +1 to an attribute and raise its natural maximum at the same time.

Now SURGE requires you to take negative qualities equal to the bonus BP, but honesrly that's not really a drawback in SR.   

[rasmusnicolaj]

Thanks you. It fast becomes expensive and hard on essence to get both an arm and a torso. Especially if you also want to have wired reflexes and other combat related cyber and bioware.

Yes a muscle toner and superthyroid would defenitely give a more well rounded character build but not agility 15 though :-)

Rasmus

[Neurosis]

(Disregard.)

[baronspam]

That means with 20 build points for Exception Attribute, 10 points for SURGE II to get the Metagenic Improvement, and 5 points for a Restricted gear quality for a REALY customized cyberarm, I think you could get a 15 agility in one arm if you started as an elf and didn't care if you could do anything else.  Add pistols 6(automatics +2) and a smartlink and thats 25 dice.

Just to make it clear for me, how do you get to 15 agility in the arm?
I can understand how you can improve it to 10 with customization as that is the elfs natural agility. But to raise it above 10 don't you have to use enchantments, and those are limited to 3 without a cybertorso. So the arms should be caped at 13 in agility.
Or am I missing something??

Oh, and why not go all in and give the dude Aptitude (Pistols) for an extra die 

And I think Metagenetic Improvement cost 20 BP but that is a minor detail.

Regards
Rasmus

You are correct, cyber torso is needed, but you can sneak one in without a restricted gear quality.
Surge II costs 10 build points.  You pick 20 points in positive metagentic qualities and 10 points in negative metagenic qualities. 

Aptitude (pistols) puts you over the max for positive qualities.

Having looked at this you can take a slightly less enhanced cyber arm, skip the restricted gear quality, and get a 5 point martial art that lets  you take aim as a free action.  You have dice to burn and the damage bonus is nice for called shots.

[Mäx]

Yes a muscle toner and superthyroid would defenitely give a more well rounded character build but not agility 15 though :-)

Yes they would, combined they give +5 to agility so with a natural agility of 10 you end up with augmented agility of 15.
And as that is your actual agility, it's a lot better then just one arm, ofcource that agility 10 is pretty expensive.

[Mason]

What makes people think that the enhance Attribute upgrades are subject to the attribute caps? It doesn't say that it does in the book, and it's a bit counter-intuitive to say that that arbitrary maximum is the limit that your body can achieve is the same as the limit that the technology ca achieve. I always rule that you can go higher, but doing so strains your body and does damage to the character when the higher rating is used. But meh, that's me filling a gole where the rules don't actually state if the rules elsewhere affect the rule just stated.

Dont'cha hate that?

[Mäx]

What makes people think that the enhance Attribute upgrades are subject to the attribute caps?

What exactly do you think the game has Augmented Attribute maximums for?

[Mason]

What do you think Redlining does?

There are ways to exceed that, and think about it logically. If an arm is built with Strength higher than a human can reach and is attached to a human, is it just gonna pop off or stop their heart? Nope. So I say, SUUUURRE...you can exceed the max...but whenever you do use the redlining rules with slightly lesser damage done ('cuz the arm isn't also exceeding operational parameters like with normal redlining). So far, no one has taken up the ruling 

[Mäx]

There are ways to exceed that, and think about it logically. If an arm is built with Strength higher than a human can reach and is attached to a human, is it just gonna pop off or stop their heart? Nope. So I say, SUUUURRE...you can exceed the max...but whenever you do use the redlining rules with slightly lesser damage done ('cuz the arm isn't also exceeding operational parameters like with normal redlining). So far, no one has taken up the ruling 

I thought you where questioning how the RAW works, not talking about house rules.
You are ofcource free to house rule this how ever you want to, but the RAW is quite clear about the subject.

[Mason]

Yes by RAW, the arm does not have attributes higher than max augmented, but it doesn't say the arm itself can't be modded above it. Something to think about for second-hand cyber.

Uhm...occurs to me I may have sounded overly sarcastic. i apologize if I came across as offensive.

[Mäx]

Yes by RAW, the arm does not have attributes higher than max augmented, but it doesn't say the arm itself can't be modded above it.

Actually it does.
A cyber limb can be customized up to natural maxim and then enchanted up to augmented maximum.

[Mason]

my copy of SR4ALimited says nothing about Enhanced Attribute mods capping at augmented attribute. One must infer it from the fact that almost everything caps at the aumented max. What you are saying is probably RAI, but not RAW.

[UmaroVI]

SR4A also says nothing about Muscle Toner capping at Augmented Max, you have to infer that from the fact that everything caps at the augmented max.

[Mason]

Which is why I infer that the maximum bonus you can receive is your augmented max, but the attribute the piece of technology itself is the maximum that ANYONE can achieve. The bonus just doesn't help someone incapable of coaxing that level of ability out of it. Hence, useful to know as character building tools for secondhand cyberlimbs.

[Mäx]

my copy of SR4ALimited says nothing about Enhanced Attribute mods capping at augmented attribute. One must infer it from the fact that almost everything caps at the aumented max. What you are saying is probably RAI, but not RAW.

From page 343(i assume the limited edtion has the same page numbers)

Customized cyberlimbs: These limbs are tailored and customized
to the intended user’s frame and musculature. Such customized
cyberlimbs also come with physical Attributes of 3, but are more versatile
and expensive than standard models. Customized cyberlimbs function
like standard limbs in most regards, but come with Body, Strength,
and Agility attributes that may exceed the standard cyberlimb attribute
rating of 3. They allow the user to raise their starting Body, Strength,
and Agility attributes up to the character’s natural attribute maximum
(p. 68). However, each attribute point raised above 3 increases the
limb’s Availability by 1 point and adds 1,500¥ to the cost—though
it does not take up any Capacity. Increases above the natural attribute
maximum and up to the augmented maximum must be handled as cyberlimb
enhancements, with the standard Capacity and nuyen costs
(Cyberlimb Enhancements, p. 344). In all other stats customized cyberlimbs
are identical to standard cyberlimbs (ie. Capacity limits, etc).

Important line underlined by me