[Ryo]

Considering this is meant to be a tool for newbie players who don't know how to build properly, I think all the skeletons should have the essential skills EVERYONE should always have at least one rank in, like Perception, Etiquette, and at least one Combat skill. If not, then construct an 'Essential Skills' skeleton, which you would then add to the base archetype skeleton before adding your own customizations.

First, I'm not convinced it's necessary to have a rank in perception and etiquette given both have a default point. For that matter, I think a combat spell takes care of the mage's combat skill.

However, I do see your point. That said, I'm not sure those are skeleton level skills. They're very important and almost always necessary, like Paragons and Mentor Spirits. But they're skills to add to muscle up and flesh out the character.

Intuition skills are the absolute worst to default on, as it's an unaugmentable attribute, and none of the races get a bonus on it. Even as the drain stat for a magician, it'll probably get softcapped to 5, and the average runner is more likely to put 3-4 points in it, if not 2 for the occasional troll who needs a dumpstat to raise his Body/Strength to obscene numbers.

Without at least one rank in Perception, you're looking at a best-case scenario of 4 dice, more likely 3 or 2, on perception checks. Then consider what it says in 'Using Perception,' that if you haven't spent a Simple Action to observe in detail, you always have -2 from distraction on your perception tests. Even the best case scenario defaulter is now down to 2 dice, and we haven't even gotten to the modifiers, which can range from -1 to -6 from lighting conditions alone. Any player who doesn't put at least one rank in Perception is suicidal.

Etiquette is similar, but not as pressing, as its theoretically possible to get by as the strong silent type who never talks to anyone and just stands in the corner waiting to get the signal to shoot something. Even with that guy, though, it's a very good idea to have at least one rank in Etiquette, cause chances are high his Charisma isn't exactly stellar, and if the GM should decide he needs to speak up, he's gonna want those extra two dice.

[Esch]

Having skeletons removes some precursor steps in building a character, but it doesn't help someone learn how to prioritize. It's possible to make a TM/mage with magic 5. Majority of the time folks in this forum consider that unwise as they're looking at Karma/long term possibilities instead of what works 'immediately'. The process you listed does help, though expanding it slightly may help folks learn. Example: "Hard cap magic: Maximize potential now as raising later is far more expensive." I'm deconstructing Umaro's archetypes to see how he focused some aspects, such as TM attributes versus skills/gear. I can attest that I struggle with the standard 200 BP allotment for attributes, and it's sometimes confusing to know when to use all the points in attributes, or use less so you can afford other skills/gear/Edge elsewhere. Making a mediocre character is too easy 

I would include a minimum BP for resources. A TM may only need 10 BPs worth as they're primarily a hacker/face, but a Rigger build would want the full 50 BP. This also keeps players from spending everything on attributes after picking a skeleton to fill out.

Perception/Dodge/A Weapon Skill? I would allot the 12 BP. At the very least a new player doesn't have the risk of defaulting on those skills. I consider that first point worth two dice as a result of avoiding the defaulting. They aren't great, but have enough to not be hampered by a general skill.

Etiquette is similar, but not as pressing, as its theoretically possible to get by as the strong silent type who never talks to anyone and just stands in the corner waiting to get the signal to shoot something. Even with that guy, though, it's a very good idea to have at least one rank in Etiquette, cause chances are high his Charisma isn't exactly stellar, and if the GM should decide he needs to speak up, he's gonna want those extra two dice.

I think Etiquette is more flavor. Aye, you will want it for some characters' skills, but the uncouth street samurai isn't unplayable, just ill-prepared for social situations. I think the line needed is whether having or not having a skill excessively limits a player overall. That's why I think Dodge/Perception are worth the point, but Etiquette can be deprioritized below being listed on a skeleton build.

[Zephraim]

Do (non-rigger) Technomancers really need minimum 4 in Gunnery? With threaded Command CF that seems like a lot of points that could be used for other things.

Good question. There are two primary reasons I think the answer is "yes".
1) The SR4 nature of the matrix is such that riggers are hackers and vice versa. Not taking gunnery is the same as not taking hacking because you're "just going to rig". Which leads to 2:
2) The sheer amount of points required to be a TM makes anything other than Hacking and Rigging a second-tier skill. By tier, I mean 20-15-10 for approximate dice pools. Primary skills should get 20+ dice. Secondaries, which you do when there isn't someone for whom it's primary, are 15 or so dice. 10 dice are for the times when you're forced to do "this".

In my opinion a TM without gunnery is intentionally not having an expected skill. The character can be fun and playable but it's doing so by working around the handicap.

(Having reviewed that answer, I'm now wondering if the TM should have at least one Pilot [vehicle] (1) skill. Probably.)

I did not question whether or not you should get the Gunnery skill, I agree that most (if not all) Technomancers should have it. But do you really need it to be as high as 4? Gunnery 1 will still give a pretty beefy dicepool and give 12bp for other things (from my experience Technomancers always seem to be strapped for points).

[kirk]

I did not question whether or not you should get the Gunnery skill, I agree that most (if not all) Technomancers should have it. But do you really need it to be as high as 4? Gunnery 1 will still give a pretty beefy dicepool and give 12bp for other things (from my experience Technomancers always seem to be strapped for points).

Yes, for the inexperienced player I recommend 4 (or even 5) for gunnery. Hacking 6 Gunnery 4, Gunnery 6 Hacking 4, or both at 5. Gunnery is a 'mainline' skill for the TM when rigging; one where due to opposition rolls more dice matters.

Read my second point again. 3 dice (from 1 to 4) is on the line of being enough to shift a tier. 5 dice (making it the 6) is a definite shit in tier. As it happens I often spec ballistic for the gunnery for 2 more dice, but I don't consider that 'skeleton' and so left it off.

[Glyph]

Face

Assumed meta: Human
Positive Quality: First Impression (5 BP)
Softcap (usually 5) Charisma. (40 BP)
Willpower: 3. (20 BP)
Skills: Influence Group: 4 (40 BP)
Intimidation: 2 (8 BP)
Total 113 BP.

Recommendations:
Bioware: Tailored Pheromones: 3 (9 BP)
Willpower: 5 (20 more BP, total 40 BP)
raise Intimidation to 4 (8 more BP, total 16 BP)
Positive Quality: Adept (5 BP)
Starting Magic: 4, reduced to 3 by Bioware (30 BP)
Powers: Kinesics: 3, Commanding Voice, 1.25 PP remaining for other powers
Total 185 BP

Peripheral ability suggestions:
Perception: 2+
Data Search: 1+ with good commlink
Disguise: 1+
20+ points spent on contacts
note: for languages, take at 4+ rating.

[kirk]

Thank you, Glyph.

A general question for the list: at what point does "face" become "pornomancer"? That is to say, at what point is adding to the face element (charisma and social skills) too much -- or is it like magic or shooting skills and "there's always room for one more"?

Why I ask.
Your recommendations are for an adept face. Is adept the norm, or are there a lot of cyber-only and mage faces?

[note: edited to correct statement based on misreading]

[Esch]

Skills: Influence Group: 4 (40 BP)
Intimidation: 2 (8 BP)

I'm kinda confused here. Breaking the skill group after buying it? Thought that was a general 'no' per SR4A (ie, 'with gamemaster approval,' etc.). This also affects the recommendations.

Secondly, I can see utilizing the adept abilities to boost Intimidate's Skill (at 0.25 PP per level) or Charisma (at least to hard cap for 0.75 PP or 1.5 PP past racial maximum) as well. It's more efficient to raise Magic than raising Charisma if you do munchkin-math on it.


Sidenote: I found a reference to Kinestics Mastery, but I've not seen a listing of the actual adept power. Would anyone mind summarizing it, in case it has good synergy with the Kinestics power (and the source book too!).

[kirk]

Intimidation isn't part of the influence group.

[Esch]

Blargh.

[kirk]

fwiw, I can't find a reference to Kinestics Mastery (or kinesics mastery if that's the right term.) Can you point out at least the reference?

[UmaroVI]

Improved Attribute is only for physical stats; you cannot boost mental attributes like Charisma with it.

Kinesics Mastery is in Spy Games. It is strictly for silly - you can communicate with body language...but only with other people dumb enough to waste .5 pp on Kinesics Mastery.

[Glyph]

Thank you, Glyph.

A general question for the list: at what point does "face" become "pornomancer"? That is to say, at what point is adding to the face element (charisma and social skills) too much -- or is it like magic or shooting skills and "there's always room for one more"?

Why I ask.
Your recommendations are for an adept face. Is adept the norm, or are there a lot of cyber-only and mage faces?

[note: edited to correct statement based on misreading]

The pornomancer is more specialized than the face - it is a build focused on the seduction specialization of con, and does this at the expense of other social skills and overall versatility.  It is also a build that is much less of a social chameleon, because conspicuous traits such as Glamour are typically added.

Since its inception, the term "pornomancer" has often been used in a more general sense, to denote any face with high social skills.  Social skills are a curious case - unlike combat skills, a lower dice pool in the 10-12 range is often quite acceptable, but the plethora of stacking bonuses lets you take your social dice pool into the stratosphere.  The point where this is "too high" varies from game to game.  Like combat skills, chasing after those last few elusive dice at the expense of being functional in other areas is usually not worth it.

Mundane faces are viable.  The unfortunate thing about adepts, though, is that they can get everything the mundane face has, and adept abilities.  So strictly speaking, they will always be the optimal choice - being a mundane gives you more potential breadth, though, and there are still plenty of ways for a non-adept to pump up his or her dice pool.

[kirk]

Thank you, Glyph.  That makes me think that maybe instead of just one "recommendations" section, there should be two or even three. Yours and one or two popular/viable alternatives that aren't adepts.

Oh: and please confirm it's acceptable for me to post this as a google-doc with you attributed as creator. (Eventually I'd like a set, as UmaroVI's done.)

[Glyph]

That would be fine.

[All4BigGuns]

Face

Assumed meta: Human
Positive Quality: First Impression (5 BP)
Softcap (usually 5) Charisma. (40 BP)
Willpower: 3. (20 BP)
Skills: Influence Group: 4 (40 BP)
Intimidation: 2 (8 BP)
Total 113 BP.

Recommendations:
Bioware: Tailored Pheromones: 3 (9 BP)
Willpower: 5 (20 more BP, total 40 BP)
raise Intimidation to 4 (8 more BP, total 16 BP)
Positive Quality: Adept (5 BP)
Starting Magic: 4, reduced to 3 by Bioware (30 BP)
Powers: Kinesics: 3, Commanding Voice, 1.25 PP remaining for other powers
Total 185 BP

Peripheral ability suggestions:
Perception: 2+
Data Search: 1+ with good commlink
Disguise: 1+
20+ points spent on contacts
note: for languages, take at 4+ rating.

Honestly, I'd HIGHLY advise removing this. As an Awakened, you are screwing yourself by putting in an implant. My advice is to use either implants or magic, but never put implants in a mage or adept.