[The Big Peat]

If a team keeps taking random bites out of other people's stuff, sooner or later they will annoy someone - probably lots of someones - badly enough to do something about it. Particularly if you the GM decides this is true.

There is also a good likelihood that these will be important and connected people. I mean, the black ops manager of a Policlub (which they quite possibly have just done) is a bad man to piss off.

They will come after them. Erased, as mentioned, does not give them a total bye. Although ironically, it possibly makes it worse for the PCs, as it means they might have to find them by torturing associates.

Anyway, when the heat comes down, they don't just have the worry of getting beaten up/cranial bombs installed and so on. They've got the problem that people aren't going to want to know them. Low level contacts will melt away. Higher level contacts might get bitter that they copped a beating for being unable to keep their fingers out of the till. Johnsons decide they don't want to give runs to teams who a) have unneccesary heat following them b) seem to have a problem with following orders. As their reputation gets burnt, and their access to equipment to pull off jobs goes, their choices dwindle down to a) become murderhobos b) knuckle down, do some lower-paying jobs (the only ones they can get) and turn it around.

Hopefully they pick b.

This said... why aren't Johnsons paying them? If the problem is they really are paying no attention to run conditions, then either you need to explain those better, or you need to emphasise that these are important and you want to run a game for professionals, or you should just simply make them a gang of criminals pulling off their own heists. If you're playing your Johnsons are unprofessional corner-cutters however, you probably shouldn't be too surprised the Runners have followed suit :p

Finally - motivating greedy runners - its difficult. Sometimes its best to simply give them enough to retire on, retire the character, and hope/get the player to make a more rounded character in terms of motivation next time.

Elsewise - either steal all their money and stuff, making them not so rich, or start hitting them elsewhere to motivate them. Murder their friends, hurt their pride, their reputation, something to give them more motivation than the next nuyen.

[CitizenJoe]

Finally - motivating greedy runners - its difficult. Sometimes its best to simply give them enough to retire on, retire the character, and hope/get the player to make a more rounded character in terms of motivation next time.

Ah, my favorite.  The "Let them win" gambit.  Congratulations, you've scored big and have enough to retire on.  The babes can't keep their hands off of you and you enjoy life on a private island...  OK, hand me your character sheet, I'll file it away for you.  Here's some new blank sheets, make up some new characters, this time at a lower power level... lets say half the build points...

Of course, players can use this on GMs too.  Let the GM win and have a TPK.   "Well, that sucked.  Anyone up for that new movie coming out?"

But I'll go back to my point, 300K isn't much.  If they stop taking jobs, stop offering them.  Then tell them it's a year later and the money's been spent.  Word on the street is that your old fixer found a new crew to back.  Mr. Johnson is gone too.

[nakano]

Simply put, to a megacorp, or a policlub as a whole, I agree, 300k is not alot.

To the poor bastiche who is going to die because of it, it is all the motivation he will ever need to get the folks responsible.

Imagine that the intentional actions of someone nearly gets you killed.  Add to that fact all of the negative issues associated with the policlub.  Then think to yourself, they did it once, they could do it again.

Would you want a reckoning?  Or to tie up lose ends? 

I sure as frag would.

[JustADude]

This said... why aren't Johnsons paying them? If the problem is they really are paying no attention to run conditions, then either you need to explain those better, or you need to emphasise that these are important and you want to run a game for professionals, or you should just simply make them a gang of criminals pulling off their own heists. If you're playing your Johnsons are unprofessional corner-cutters however, you probably shouldn't be too surprised the Runners have followed suit :p

I'll second that question; are the Johnsons getting "cute" and trying to screw the players on technicalities, or are the players just being sloppy and amateurish?

If it's the former, most of my characters would, for example, would put a bullet in between the Johnson's eyes and sell his body to the Organ Leggers.

And, before anyone says anything about "reputation", you need to remember Shadowrunners they are, in fact, heavily armed and very dangerous people, working outside the law doing some very dirty deeds. In that world, retaliation against someone who screws you... and stiffing you on a job, especially a big one, is most definitely screwing you... tends to be swift and brutal or prolonged and grinding.

Of course, as Nakano mentioned, this goes both ways.

But I'll go back to my point, 300K isn't much.

Agreed!

You can blow 240,000¥ on a Rating 3 Synaptic Booster, and that's just standard grade. 300,000¥ isn't insignificant, but it's certainly nothing to worry about if the team's investing in the future.

[CitizenJoe]

If it's the former, most of my characters would, for example, would put a bullet in between the Johnson's eyes and sell his body to the Organ Leggers.

Pfft!  Amateur!   All the Johnson's good tech is in the head.  Go for the base of the neck.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mr Johnsons have on occasion been a bit lax about payment due to disputes over interpretation of contracts.

Problem with the Johnson or the Fixer; also a problem with the GM.  The latter is most important; get it solved.  If it means coming up with alternate ways for payment (blind escrow with a trusted anonymous matrix bank, with the fixer, whatever), this is an issue.  The runners do the job; they get paid.  They don't do the job, they don't get paid.  They do the job partially (by failing to keep it quiet, stealing stuff other than what they were told, whatever), then they lose certain amounts.  This keeps happening, a blind escrow fund is established, payable to anyone who kills the fuckup runners.

Anyway, that's not an issue.  The issue is that the runners always find someway to increase their rewards.  They recently hacked a policlub and stole their slush fund of 300,000 nuyen.  They do this on a fairly regular basis.  The issue becomes that runs which don't pay well are starting to be rejected...  Not worth my time.  And before I act against them to reduce their cash, their hacker is erased, and a thousand other things which in theory make him untouchable.

In Theory.  Wonderful words.  Electronic invisibility works only so much, though; the Erased bit means that records are gone (within 24 hours to 1 week, I think, depending on level), but it doesn't mean crap to someone who is after you right now and has bots searching through today's GridGuide records with top of the line facial recognition software.  It doesn't erase a hacker's datatrail; it definitely does nothing to hardcopy.  With Crash 2.0, plenty of hardcopy back-ups are being kept; even data backups are being kept on chip, unconnected.

Which means your electronically-untouchable hacker can still get his head blown off by a hitman or just a ganger who was hired by saying, 'he lives in Podunk; here's a recent hardcopy image.  Don't toss it out, someone's erasing his stuff.'

Can you just hack a system and steal their nuyen?

Good news for runners: You can!!  Stealing their nuyen means stealing passcodes to accounts, permissions, all that sort of thing.

Good news for GMs: They can!!  Stealing their nuyen means when they use the passcodes, permissions, and all that sort of thing, they're leaving a datatrail which can be tracked.  It means that if they don't fence the stuff (in Burning Chrome, they got something like two percent of the burn amount), the people (who can report their e-nuyen stolen, and the bank will put an alert up for '¥ #123456-56-7890' and associated 'bills') every time they use their credstick, the bank is notified that stolen money is being used, and KE comes screaming out of the hills at them.

If they don't fence their stolen ¥ (if you're generous, leave them 30%; if you're realistic, leave them 15%; if you're mean, leave them 5%), send the cops after them.  Each time they get away, upgrade the response team by one level, until when they purchase something with the stolen cash, they're getting heavy attack craft and military assault teams.

How good is Erased, really?

It's useful, but it isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card.  It's a 'only have to lay low for a couple days' card.  Hell, if you're IN jail, you might be stuck -- as your 'Joe Runner is in jail' gets erased, and the system forgets you're even there.  "Who's that?"  'Just a prisoner, sir.  Records keep glitching on him, so we decided to leave them alone.  I'd guess he's in here for life...'

How to keep greedy runners motivated when they start to get too rich?

With emphasis:

Take Away Their Toys.

Runners hate being shot at.  (Well, most of them do.)  Shoot at them.  Let two middle managers who had the same thing (i.e. the runners) happen to them find themselves commiserating over beers in a bar, discover -- 'yeah, and the troll had this weird scrolling horn!' 'Yeah, I know that guy, that's the same team that did it to me!!' -- they have something in common, and start building a profile.  For the decker?  Maybe, maybe not, (see above) but for the rest of the team, sure.

• They find other people who were Done Wrong.
• The Done Wrong group pools their resources.
• DW starts finding runs their individual companies need, preferably against remote-to-DW-members parts of other DW companies.
• Keeping themselves 'unrelated' to each other, DW individually hire for these runs -- and get word out that they want The Runners for the jobs.
• While one DW hires the runners, the rest of DW hire a top-notch surveillance expert to tail one (and only one) of the Runners per mission -- to record that person (especially the decker, on auto-remove zero-wireless-connectivity chip) in the commission of their various crimes, then after the run, to track the Runner to their safehouse -- and, days after that, to their home.
• Repeat for several -- numerous -- runs, until all of the PCs have been thoroughly recorded and tracked.
• DW replicates all information, then members go to their heads of security with information given to them anonymously, adding that the information says that corporations X, Y, and Z also have the information.  "By the way, I know a couple of guys who work at those places; you want I should try to arrange a meeting?"
• Corporations A, B, C, P, D, Q, X, Y, and Z meet.
• A serious set of strike teams are assembled.
• DW members sit back and enjoy the show as:
  
  • Every Runner's private place is destroyed -- simultaneously.
  • Every Runner's vehicle is destroyed -- simultaneously.
  • Every safehouse is blown, in sequence, shortly before (or shortly after) a runner gets to it.  If it's a team safehouse, at least half the team should be there before they blow it or attack it.
  • At least 25% of the team's contacts should be killed; this is a minimum number.
  • Another 25% of the team's contacts should be brutalized in some manner.  "They threatened my kid, man, my kid!!"
  • The rest of the team's contacts should receive a serious talking-to, warning that if they deal with the Runners, all information/contact with the aforementioned companies will dry up, and/or Bad Things will happen.
  • The Runners are blacklisted throughout the DW companies.
• Specifically for the Hacker:
  • A group of hackers or technomancers should be hired to hit the Hacker.
  • While many of them attack him hard enough to keep his attention, one (or several) should hack his commlink, acquiring:     
    • Every bank account he has the passcodes to, as well as those passcodes;
    • Every databank access he has;
    • Every bit of information on every stash of gear/tech/cash/etc. the team has; and
    • Every kept log of the hacks he's done.
  • After draining his commlink dry of information, every one of his programs should be corrupted -- as should his backups.
  • Finally, his commlink should get fried.
• Fry all the other Runners' commlinks.
• Have the DW members pool their personal resources and post that anonymous escrow account I was talking about, payable to the people who can prove they killed the Runners.
• The Runners should now own what they were carrying on them when this whole thing started -- maybe a gun, the armored jacket they normally walk around in, their power focus necklace.  If they're excruciatingly lucky, they'll have a motorcycle or something.
• The Runners are now also 'Hung Out To Dry' and have a 'Bad Reputation' as the DW corporations spread the word through THEIR contacts; give them both Negative Qualities at double strength and inform them of the karma cost and roleplay requirements to eliminate them.
• Finally, every low-life in the Sprawl is looking for the Runners to finalize them.  Keep track of ammo.

A this point none of their contacts are even willing to talk to them (because of their rep, the contact's fear of reprisal, or due to taking a dirt nap), and nobody on the street who recognizes them is going to trust them further than they can throw them -- even less, in many cases, because at this point the Runners are money on the hoof.  Moving to a new town might change things ... if they have enough pocket change to get there.

Toys taken away.  Reps ruined.  Lives in danger.  It's Joe Runner, his trusty Predator IV, a pair of thin-soled shoes, 6 rides left on a bus pass, and the rest of his team -- if everyone survived.

Good luuuuck ....

[Black]

Fraggin awesome responses.
Its only been the last two johnsons:

The first they were hired to escort a subject to a meeting so that the subject could provide intel to the FBI, which they did with shinning colours... except the subject's own bodyguard drugged him.  Subject collapses seconds before providing his intel. The team is arrested by the FBI, and Mr Johnson fades away.  Team hasn't had a chance to catch up with this johnson or the fixer that introduced them yet. They believe they got him to his destination, the Johnson believes that his own objectives were not met and his not paying good cash for a job which he got no benefit from.

The FBI hire the runners to complete a mission in exchange for clear records.  So there is no payment.  Some new players join, so there characters are paid and score an expense account.  They have since made 300,000K plus some other valuables.  Not bad. Expenses so far him.. about 100k which is the expense account spent.

Steps to be taken:

• One of their enemies, a corp runner for Ares, had a cybereye and has recorded their images and is currently hunting them
• Implement the ideas provided on tracking and law enforcement of stolen nuyen

The policlub may not get revenge.  The team later ran into the local leader of the club who turned out to be a free spirit (shadow) who was using the club to spread fear and hatred.  Made a deal with a the dragon leader of a local Triad and were able to bound the spirit (at least for now) in an artifact designed for this purpose.  But a useful idea for next time, and there will be a next time.

[Jaffer]

...and there will be a next time.

I like the sound of that.   

[Mirikon]

One thing you should always, ALWAYS remember. When you mess with the nuyen, you mess with Z-OG. When you mess with Z-OG, GOD makes you a priority.

[CitizenJoe]

One thing you should always, ALWAYS remember. When you mess with the nuyen, you mess with Z-OG. When you mess with Z-OG, GOD makes you a priority.

This is probably the likely source of pain, moreso than Mr. B Igot.  When you steal a passcode and just take the money out, that is identity theft and credit fraud.  Banks are insured against that and, except for a little lost time and nominal expense to file, that account will be reimbursed and the bank will then deal with the loss on their own terms.  It is going to sit there while authorities try to find a lead.  On a solid lead, like if any of the funds get spent, the bank might authorize up to a total of 45K (15%) to recovery experts.  Otherwise, you need to wait for the statute of limitations to end, which is 5 years in UCAS.

[Murrdox]

I think the basics of it boil down to the fact that you're making it too easy for them to just steal Nuyen.

Honestly this sort of electronic Nuyen stealing should be nigh impossible.  You would need to get VERY creative at money laundering to pull it off.  The only Nuyen you should be able to outright STEAL would be an uncertified credstick sitting around that you can pick up and take with you.

You shouldn't be able to just hack a Node and steal Nuyen.  Even if you steal Humanis' passcode to their banks and transfer the Nuyen to your own account, you have to deal with the BANK knowing about the transfer, and also Humanis finding out about the transfer.  Also, the fact that you're dealing with a Bank that relies on making secure transactions means that doing this sort of transfer needs to be a LOT more complex than simply transferring the funds, and then editing or deleting the datatrail.  That sort of action SHOULD cause all sorts of redundant alarms to go off, reject the transaction, and send ICE and Knight Errant to deal with whoever is causing the disturbance.

THEN you've got your OWN bank to deal with.  OK, so you transferred 300,000 Nuyen to your account.  Where the frack did THAT come from?  Your Bank is going to fly the red flag of Fraud, freeze your account, and figure out what is happening.  So now you've got to do the same hacking on your OWN account to make the transfer seem legitimate, and that comes with the same pitfalls as hacking the bank you stole from.

This is why Shadowrunners steal paydata... data they can steal and then SELL to someone anonymously.  You don't just steal raw Nuyen.

Regardless of the hacking rules in Shadowrun 4A, which I know are full of holes that a dedicated rules-lawyer can try to exploit... just wave your magic GM Wand and say it is not possible.

In addition to that, what's more fun, just stealing a pile of cash from the Humanis?   Or stealing a list of AAA corp execs who are funneling money to the organization, and selling THAT information to Orc Underground, and watching the sparks fly?  The roleplaying possibilities are endless with the second option.

[All4BigGuns]

Regardless of the hacking rules in Shadowrun 4A, which I know are full of holes that a dedicated rules-lawyer can try to exploit... just wave your magic GM Wand and say it is not possible.

I'm of the school of thought that this should only be done to prevent a PC from dying as the result of randomness, not to just say that an idea the character has to make money "just won't work". I mean, yeah, there are limits, but if they have a good idea for pulling it off and the skill to try it, the player should be allowed to try.

Though, there is always checking their skills and letting them know if you don't think they'd quite have skill for it yet.

[CitizenJoe]

For credsticks transactions, security is:
up to 5K: Passcode
Up to 20K: Fingerprint
Up to 200K: Voiceprint
Up to 1 million: Retinal Scan
1 million+: Cellular scan.

Now matrix transactions might be different, but I think those are good baseline security precautions.  In the 300K example, the runners would have needed to pass a retinal scan to get the whole load.  Otherwise, it's just 5K per transaction...

[Murrdox]

Regardless of the hacking rules in Shadowrun 4A, which I know are full of holes that a dedicated rules-lawyer can try to exploit... just wave your magic GM Wand and say it is not possible.

I'm of the school of thought that this should only be done to prevent a PC from dying as the result of randomness, not to just say that an idea the character has to make money "just won't work". I mean, yeah, there are limits, but if they have a good idea for pulling it off and the skill to try it, the player should be allowed to try.

Though, there is always checking their skills and letting them know if you don't think they'd quite have skill for it yet.

Sure, I'd allow it if the players were dedicated enough to the cause, but when it comes to hacking a BANK and just stealing money, it's not going to be as simple as maxing out your Computer skill and purchasing the highest rating Hack program possible.  You'd have to be a hell of a lot more creative than that.  It would never be as simple as the team hacking into a Node, stealing 300,000 Nuyan, and letting a 10 BP Positive Quality clean things up for them.  If the team spent TONS of time and Nuyen hiring and training a team of hackers, putting moles inside the Matrix at the bank they wanted to steal from, and paid off some programmers at the bank to install back-doors for them to use, then I'd perhaps give them a chance of pulling it off. 

My point to the OP is that he's letting the team get away with too much too easily, which seems to be really upsetting the balance of power in his campaign.

Hell, if all I need to do to make money is go plug my Commlink with my Rating 6 Hack program into the nearest Ares ATM, why the hell would I answer any calls from my fixer for a job?

[Mirikon]

Regardless of the hacking rules in Shadowrun 4A, which I know are full of holes that a dedicated rules-lawyer can try to exploit... just wave your magic GM Wand and say it is not possible.

I'm of the school of thought that this should only be done to prevent a PC from dying as the result of randomness, not to just say that an idea the character has to make money "just won't work". I mean, yeah, there are limits, but if they have a good idea for pulling it off and the skill to try it, the player should be allowed to try.

Though, there is always checking their skills and letting them know if you don't think they'd quite have skill for it yet.

Using Mr. B Igot's passcodes, from his system, to send the money to various black bank accounts would work, in the short term. However, when Mr. B Igot called the bank to report the identity theft and fraud, the money would be refunded to him out of the bank's insurance, and both the bank and Mr. B Igot would be looking for the perpetrators. While Mr. B Igot would be putting the squeeze on street types, the bank would be sending forensic accountants and hackers to find out everything on the people who own the black accounts. If there's any movement on those accounts, even so much as buying a nukit burger at stuffer shack, they're onto you.