[Dracain]

Hi everyone I am new to the forums and I had two semi-related questions.  The first is if the magic attribute counts as the one attribute you can have maxed out at player creation, or if you can have one of the original attributes, like logic or strength maxed out as well as magic.  The second question is about the physical adept.  While reading their abilities I noticed that at character creation an adept can have maxed strength, as well as killing hands and the max level of critical strike (which is tied to the magic attribute, which means it can be either 5 or 6 depending on the answer to my first question).  This can lead to a physical adept being able to punch for 12 (or 11) physical damage at character creation, and while that is their cap basically (until they initiate) that is still higher than the shot of a sniper rifle.  Now I know I am probably not calculating something into it, but I am wondering if anyone thinks this is a little overpowered?  Again, I am almost certain I am wrong, but I wanted to ask other players who are a bit more experienced with the system than myself about it.  Any replies are appreciated.  Oh right, one more question.  What is the difference between uncouth and just getting incompetent in all social skills?

[Demerzel]

I would say that since the limit on raising only one attribute to the natural max is in the section headed, "PHYSICAL/MENTAL ATTRIBUTES" that it does not apply to magic, edge, or resonance.

[Dracain]

Thanks for the quick response.  I thought that, but I figured that I would double-check since I was here anyway to ask the adept question. 

[Demerzel]

Also, unarmed damage is (Strength ÷ 2)S so in order to do 12P from a punch you need a troll with exceptional attribute quality to start with a strength of 11, plus the rating 6 critical strike, and killing hands. That is a lot of your points going into that punch, so I would say, go ahead. Does not feel overpowered.

[Dracain]

Oh right!  Damn it I always forget the divider in strength.  I feel like such an idiot now.  Thanks for the info, I mixed up 'cus I've been a bit busy, but you definitely helped me out a lot.  Thanks again. 

[UmaroVI]

Punching adepts are by no means overpowered. If you want to see one example, look in my sig at the "Martial Artist" archetype.

I agree with Magic not counting towards the one maxed attribute. It is not generally a good idea to hardcap attributes, though, with the exception of Resonance on technomancers and a few very specific cases with metatypes that get large bonuses - it's generally better to buy the last point with karma.

Uncouth is more or less equivalent to Incompetence in all social skills. Uncouth is actually a very poorly thought-out negative quality. The name and description make you think that it is for people like Jayne (from Firefly) or similar characters, but actually it's for high-functioning autistic people who can't tell when someone is lying to them, are easily bullied, and so on, because you use social skills to defend against other social skills. If you want to be uncouth, that's Incompetence (Etiquette) and maybe Incompetence (Negotiation).

[Dracain]

I just thought the uncouth skill negative quality was weird because it says it is like having incompetence in all social skills, but if you actually get incompetence in all social skills, you gain 30 BP instead of the 20 BP you gain from uncouth with the exact same effect, or am I miscalculating? 

[UmaroVI]

No, that's also odd.

[Dracain]

 I was just playing around with how to make the character I wanted and was in the qualities section and noticed that the numbers just didn't add up.  Funny how that works isn't it? 

[Glyph]

Remember that uncouth still lets you buy social skills (albeit at double cost), while for incompetent, you have to buy off the flaw itself if you ever want to get the skill.  Also, taking separate incompetencies will increase your Notoriety more than the single flaw of uncouth will.

Unfortunately, Shadowrun's social skill rules fall flat on their face in some areas.  Since social skills are resisted with social skills, you can't really make a decent curmudgeon unless you also make him a face (which is defeating the point!).  If you have, say, incompetence in etiquette, then part of it plays okay - you are likely to wipe your nose with the tablecloth when you are trying to fit in.  But unfortunately, you are about the opposite of antisocial when people use etiquette on you.  You want to be everyone's friend!  Because you don't even get a roll to resist it.  Bah.

I think being "unaware" in a social skill should confer near-immunity, not total vulnerability.  How can you succumb, when you are standing there going "Derrrrr..." while this person is threatening you, trying to seduce you, or whatever else?

[Fenris]

Re: Adept punch damage:

From what I can tell, it's quite easy to get it up there, even without being a troll with enormous strength. An Old Man Adept, say, 2 strength, can still hit like a truck with +3 DV from Martial Arts and +6 Critical Strike. He'd be blasting for 10P right there. I believe Hardliner gloves can add to that. That's only a pure adept...we haven't even gotten into cybered adepts with bone lacing. If Old Man Adept had Bone Density Augmentation for his bone problems it could get worse. You'd sack a level of crit strike due to magic rating, but it could pile up high.

A fit young man at a 5 strength, 6 levels of Critical Strike and 3 Martial Arts bonus would indeed be punching for 12P. (Most people end up ditching Strength for this reason...it's so easy to add DV from other ways.)

And yeah, Uncouth is really, really bad. I know that negative qualities should be just that-negative qualities-but Uncouth is damn near crippling.

[JustADude]

I think being "unaware" in a social skill should confer near-immunity, not total vulnerability.  How can you succumb, when you are standing there going "Derrrrr..." while this person is threatening you, trying to seduce you, or whatever else?

Very much agreed. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to resist social skills with Composure, rather than other social skills. But, to make things sweet for Faces, If you resist with your own Social skills it counts as a counter-attack, and if you win YOU get to apply your nets hits to the "attacker".

Basically, you can either tell the guy to get stuffed or you can play the game and try to beat him at it.

[ArkangelWinter]

Very much agreed. I'm of the opinion that you should be able to resist social skills with Composure, rather than other social skills. But, to make things sweet for Faces, If you resist with your own Social skills it counts as a counter-attack, and if you win YOU get to apply your nets hits to the "attacker".

Basically, you can either tell the guy to get stuffed or you can play the game and try to beat him at it.

I like it and will adopt it. +1 to you sir

[JustADude]

Basically, you can either tell the guy to get stuffed or you can play the game and try to beat him at it.

I like it and will adopt it. +1 to you sir

Now that I think about it, though, I'm trying to think what such a "counter-attack" would look like, for each Social skill, as opposed to negating the "attack"ing roll with Composure.

I think Negotiation is pretty obvious; you basically turn the tables on him and get the deal working in your favor... guy goes to talk you into walking away from a job and you either up the bribe or get him to take "no" for an answer without having to shoot anyone.

Ditto for Intimidation; guy tries to front you and act all Big Bad Trog and you end up backing him down with your own brand of mojo, whether it be "Scary, Spooky Dude," "Bigger, Badder Trog," or "Did you really think I came alone?" or whatever is appropriate for your style and the situation, instead of simply looking unimpressed.

Con, on the other hand, might be trickier to define ... maybe you see right through him, but manage to pretend you've bought his line, while Composure would let you see through the BS, but your body-language makes it crystal clear you're not buying what he's selling?

[ArkangelWinter]

Thrn you still have Etiquettr. What do you do, polite him to death?