[Twitchy D]

When you are surprised in a small alley, how easy is it to draw a rifle to shoot someone in an enclosed space?

If the law has an issue with a restricted level 7 hunting rifle, like in the city, wouldn't it look odd to have some random dude carrying a hunting rifle on his back? You don't find much wildlife in a city, at least no wildlife worth stuffing and placing on a mantleplace.

Finally, aren't sidearms to be expected in this setting? A pistol is good for self-defense, right? No matter how many fancy tricks you can do with a butterfly knife, if the guy is out of reach and you only have that knife, you are screwed.

Basically, a Pistol is an insurance plan. When your more obvious toys cannot be brought with you, that pistol will at least give you the ability to kill from a distance, however short that distance may be.

[UmaroVI]

The sole virtue pistols have is that they are concealable. Palming is the skill for concealing things! 1, 3, and 4 all sound like good reasons to have a concealable weapon, and Longarms+Palming will do that for you better than Longarms+Pistols (albeit not as well as Longarms+Pistols+Palming). You can't want a concealable weapon but not actually want the ability to conceal it!

Also, I think you overestimate how hard the t-250 is to conceal. It's only machine pistol sized. You can stack up concealability modifiers: any of the loltrenchcoats are -2, chameleon coating is -4, and that gets you to a net of -4 which is plenty to hide it with a decent check.

2 is simply not true. In SR, carrying an assault rifle down the street is exactly as legal as openly wearing a pistol down the street - that is, if you have a license, it's OK. Also, cities are in fact full of "wildlife." This is this grimdark 80s future, the streets have gangs, feral ghouls, they do in fact have paracritters, etc.

[Twitchy D]

The sole virtue pistols have is that they are concealable. Palming is the skill for concealing things! 1, 3, and 4 all sound like good reasons to have a concealable weapon, and Longarms+Palming will do that for you better than Longarms+Pistols (albeit not as well as Longarms+Pistols+Palming). You can't want a concealable weapon but not actually want the ability to conceal it!

What about how commonplace they are? LOT'S of people are carrying in 2012. With Sish going Bananas after the Awakining and Goblinization, wouldn't any mundane seek Insurance against those "darn pointy-eared freaks"? Much less those Mages? As for Concealing and Palming, see your argument below. Why bother palming when the concealment mods so high?

Also, I think you overestimate how hard the t-250 is to conceal. It's only machine pistol sized. You can stack up concealability modifiers: any of the loltrenchcoats are -2, chameleon coating is -4, and that gets you to a net of -4 which is plenty to hide it with a decent check.

But isn't any standard shotgun about SMG sized? Did you remember that barrel reduction only reduces the size to the next size down, and that the T-250's size reduction option is optional? You still have to buy another upgrade to hide it further anyways, but the pistols group has different concealibility modifiers for each tier of size. -4 for Holdouts, -2 for Light, -0 for Heavy. Plus more options for choosing which one works best for you. Also, five shots, then a complex to reload does not sound good to my ears. Less time shooting people trying to kill you never, ever does

2 is simply not true. In SR, carrying an assault rifle down the street is exactly as legal as openly wearing a pistol down the street - that is, if you have a license, it's OK. Also, cities are in fact full of "wildlife." This is this grimdark 80s future, the streets have gangs, feral ghouls, they do in fact have paracritters, etc.

...I truly doubt that a man carrying a fully loaded assult rifle in downtown Seattle in a park accross from the Aztechnology Pyramid would not get pulled in for some questions. After so many years of shadowrunnig being commonplace, don't you think that any self respecting Megacorp would send out some agents to figure out who the "Totally Inconspicuous Dude with the Assult Rifle on his Back" is, or WHY he's carrying an assult rifle? Particularly while looking at the complex while eating a sandwich? No matter how Grimdark the Grimdark future is, context matters a lot.

I'm sorry for leaving while this is still hot, but I gotta head to work soon... however, I would still like to talk about this. Even if I don't agree with you, I'm still having a good time talking. Could we talk again in about four to five hours?

[UmaroVI]

The sawed-off T-250 is not equivalent to Barrel Reduction.

A normal-sized shotgun is not on the table, but I have a hard time believing it is closer in size to a SMG than a rifle. IRL, an AK-47 is 87 cm long, from what I can tell shotgun length vary but an Ithaca 37 is 125 cm. An Uzi is 47cm (depending on type, might vary). So your GM might rule shotguns are +6 or not at all concealable. If we say clips enough, one of the gun nuts will probably come by and clarify, but I cannot imagine that typical shotguns are closer to SMG size than they are to rifle size. Clips. Clips clips clips. Clips and magazines mean the same thing.

The T-250 sawed-off version (the only version really worth using; the regular-size one is just a mediocre normal shotgun) is explicitly listed as +2.

So, if you compare: defaulting on hiding a Light Pistol with Palming 0 is slightly worse than hiding the T-250 with Palming 4. You can get 1 more die on hiding a holdout, but holdouts actually are worse in combat than the T-250.

...I truly doubt that a man carrying a fully loaded assult rifle in downtown Seattle in a park accross from the Aztechnology Pyramid would not get pulled in for some questions. After so many years of shadowrunnig being commonplace, don't you think that any self respecting Megacorp would send out some agents to figure out who the "Totally Inconspicuous Dude with the Assult Rifle on his Back" is, or WHY he's carrying an assult rifle? Particularly while looking at the complex while eating a sandwich? No matter how Grimdark the Grimdark future is, context matters a lot.

Shadowrun isn't real life. In real life you can't get a civilian permit to just walk around with an assault rifle. In SR you can, and there are lots of answers to why people would have them.

Now, does that mean that people will let you carry it onto any given private property, no, but they won't let you openly carry a pistol everywhere either.

[sway]

Clips and magazines mean the same thing.

First ye' bait the hook...

[lurkeroutthere]

For the record, and I mean this with no disrespt, you are about to the point you should be ignoring Umaro, if you feel that you'd rather have pistols then longarms because you feel it'd be easier to be subtle with a pistol then do so. Once you've crossed that threshhold from having a character that sounds good in your head but is terrible in practice to something that works in actual game play you can essentially stop optimizing and just go with what you think you'll enjoy most and get the most milliage out of early.

Umaro will tell you in fine detail what makes the best character on paper, point wise, that's not to say it will be the best character in all situations. Personally I am completely in agreement with you, carrying a full shotgun or rifle in downtown Seattle or any civilized area of Seattle will get you noticed by the cops, and even if it is technically legal in most places will get you extra scrutiny. Since your always one license failure away from having a "really bad day" a subtle option pays well.

[UmaroVI]

Clips and magazines mean the same thing.

First ye' bait the hook...

By the way, did you know that all assault rifles are the same caliber, and so are all sport rifles?

[UmaroVI]

Personally I am completely in agreement with you, carrying a full shotgun or rifle in downtown Seattle or any civilized area of Seattle will get you noticed by the cops, and even if it is technically legal in most places will get you extra scrutiny. Since your always one license failure away from having a "really bad day" a subtle option pays well.

Here's where I disagree: I think that carrying a AK-47 through downtown Seattle strapped to your back, and (openly) carrying a pistol through downtown Seattle will get you the same level of scrutiny from the police, whatever that level is. In SR, not real life, of course.

[ArkangelWinter]

But Pistols come in 3 calibers 

And as a point, those who call "mags" "clips" in my game get horrendously made fun of by more intelligent NPCs.

[Operator]

Clips and magazines mean the same thing.

First ye' bait the hook...

By the way, did you know that all assault rifles are the same caliber, and so are all sport rifles?

And no SMG shares ammo calibers with pistols!

[UmaroVI]

Clips and magazines mean the same thing.

First ye' bait the hook...

By the way, did you know that all assault rifles are the same caliber, and so are all sport rifles?

And no SMG shares ammo calibers with pistols!

Especially not machine pistols - after all, those are totally different from SMGs. No surprise, really.

[JustADude]

A normal-sized shotgun is not on the table, but I have a hard time believing it is closer in size to a SMG than a rifle. IRL, an AK-47 is 87 cm long, from what I can tell shotgun length vary but an Ithaca 37 is 125 cm. An Uzi is 47cm (depending on type, might vary).

Actually, in the USA at least, the minimum legal length for a civilian shotgun is only 66cm total, with a minimum 46cm barrel, and they make several models that are that short down to the millimeter, because they sell well for people who want "home defense" shotguns.

And that's the legal civilian minimum. An illegal shotgun, or one designed for use only by LEOs or soldiers for CQB and "breaching", could get quite a bit shorter; easily down into the mid--to-low 50s.

In short, I would assume the shotguns that mention being "tactical" are more concealable than the "hunting" guns, and the F-code weapons are more concealable than the R-code "tactical" guns.

[Twitchy D]

I'm back...

And as a point, those who call "mags" "clips" in my game get horrendously made fun of by more intelligent NPCs.

...

Clips. Clips clips clips. Clips and magazines mean the same thing.

Gah, I knew the Clip/Mag thing would bite me in the ass...

OK, my basic goal of creating this version of the character was to make someone who was reasonably able to take care of combat, no matter the range. Using a rifle for long/mid range, a pistol or a shotgun for mid/short range, and a knife for short/face to face encounters. I did not intend to be the sneaky guy. I would much rather be the backup plan for when things go wrong. I thought that a sports rifle would be a more interesting choice of weapon then the typical assult rifle. Also, that a shotgun could reasonably make up for full auto by spraying a lot of buckshot in the air, particularly for early in the game when you need to get a name for yourself by blowing holes in gang members with little to no armor. The pistol was the last ranged weapon, to be used when a rifle would have been impratical. If I was going into the Ork Underground, it would be silly to say that I could weild a rifle just as well as a pistol in a room the size as a bus station bathroom. Plus, I assumed that having a backup skill to fall back on would be a good idea when things got tits up. Essentially, I wanted to be the Street Samurai. Good at killing things quickly, no questions asked.

Here, lemme post the Attributes and skills.

Body      4 (5)
Agility      5 (8 )
Reaction      4 (5)
Strength      4 (7)
Charisma      2
Intuition      4
Logic      2
Willpower      3
Edge      4

---Skills---
Groups
•   Athletics Group      2


Combat
•   Blades         7   =15
•   Longarms         4   =12
•   Pistols         4   =12

Physical
•   Climbing         2   =9
•   Gymnastics      2   =10
•   Infiltration         1   =9
•   Perception         4   =8
•   Running         2   =9
•   Survival    (Urban)      3 (+2)   =6 ( 8 )
•   Swimming         2   =9

Technical
•   Armorer         3   =5

Knowledge
•   Cooking (Grilling/BBQ)      2 (3)
•   Bars (Go-Ganger/Biker Bars)   3 (4)
•   Boltholes (Seattle)      3 (4)

Language
•   German         4
•   Russian         3
•   English (Natural)      NA

Most of what I have up here relies on Agility, so why not focus on those skills that would make mincemeat out of enemies?

[Twitchy D]

One last thing.

Reading from the reloading firearms table, it says that a removable clip takes a simple action to reload, while an internal magazine takes a complex action to reload

Thus the whole Clips/Mags debacle is now explained!

[UmaroVI]

If you plan to use the Barrett at some point in the future (I agree it's not really worth Restricted Gear), then Pistols/Longarms is an OK weapon choice - but it really does need Palming to back the Pistols part up. Even Palming 1. Actually, that would be a good idea for the blades, too. What's the point of using ceramic knives if you don't have the skill you need to actually conceal the ceramic knife? I would cut a point of Survival and get Palming 1. Other than that, I don't see any major issues.

Also, on the clips/magazines thing, I was actually just making a joke about that being the best way to get the people who actually know about guns to show up.