[TheHug]

Yo.

So I am wondering, among gm's, who actually draws out combats on graph paper and tracks exact positions, etc. My last game the combat involved only a couple npc's and happened so quickly we just rolled a couple rounds. I drew a really basic map. The players were approaching a house, and I showed them what direction they came from when fighting started. Then they just said stuff like "I take cover behind that tree" etc. But I never kept exact positions tracked on the grid.

I feel like precise movement tracking would increase the tactical feel, but SR combat is also so fast that being super finicky about a grid seems like unnecessary clutter.

Thinking maybe I draw initial positions and since combat only lasts a couple rounds, not that much movement happens anyway?

Any general advice on streamlining combat would also be welcome!

[JustADude]

I tend to go with the latter idea. For the most part, once the shooting start it's over before you have time to do more than _maybe_ take cover.

As for whether there's cover... I generally let people take a Free Action to roll Perception to try and find cover. Threshold depends on the environment... a full parking-lot, after all, is easier to hide in than an empty one.

[Exodus]

When you keep with the RPG habit of "Throw a group of enemies at the PCs, let combat happen, stop" then the combat in Shadowrun is over in ~6 seconds on average. However, if you play your NPCs like a real squad with a real job and a real sense of self-preservation things change. When combat doesn't take place in a bottle it can easily run 15 minutes ingame.

When that happens I usually have a large-scale "strategic" map in my head, rough estimations of movement speed, and NPC knowledge of the field of battle. For the players I use rough sketches of the tactical area they have knowledge about and a great deal of descriptive words. A grid just seems to bog things down.

I also have a rule with my table, if they say "I take cover behind X" or "I pick up X" and there's no reason X shouldn't be in the area, it is. We don't have the time to describe Every. Little. Thing. the PCs might use in any particular situation so if the players want to dive behind a junction box and they're in a place where a junction box wouldn't be out of place then... there was a junction box there the whole time.

Edit: The most fun my players had was a running gunbattle through an ash-covered favela when they were outgunned, outmanned, and TBH, screwed. It ended with a Troll-on-Troll sledgehammer kill 30 minutes ingame and 1 hour realtime later.

[JustADude]

Your argument has one massive flaw: That scenario (i.e. "Line Up And Shoot It Out") is pretty much the opposite of what I was talking about.

In the sessions I've run and played in, the overwhelming majority of fights are ambushes, from one side or the other, with big running firefights being reserved for when Charlie is dancing the Foxtrot. Combat "happens in a bottle" because the characters very carefully set it up that way In Universe.

If the Runners go first, the enemies don't ever live long enough to put strategic plans in play, or often even get an Action to start running in terror. The bad guys (being, as you said, smart), usually try to do the same to the Runners when they have the element of surprise.

In short, when it's 3-5 guys against gods know how much security, only a flippin' moron starts shooting if he isn't confident he can drop his targets before they can scatter and call for help.

[Exodus]

The way I run things a perfect ambush is a REALLY HARD thing to pull off. The mere act of gathering intel puts the plan at risk for discovery, the NPCs have the same kind of toolbox to pull from, the entirety of the enemy force won't be in the same place at the same time, etc. Sure against some gangers or rent-a-cops an ambush isn't that hard but shadowrunners and similar operatives do that crap for a living.

Perfect ambushes also make combat very boring, 1IP and everyone with more than 10 die to their preferred guns skill has a confirmed incap, then the mage does his thing and the fight is over. I've played in games where the GM let us get the drop on enemies frequently and there was little need to take cover, fire and maneuver, or do anything other than roll dice, kill dudes, and repeat.

But ontopic: I feel that mapping out a grid for a location is like planning that combat will take place in said location. That's too much planning for my group and all but guarantees that combat will happen in a place I haven't mapped. Such is fate.

[farothel]

In short, when it's 3-5 guys against gods know how much security, only a flippin' moron starts shooting if he isn't confident he can drop his targets before they can scatter and call for help.

Unfortunately the flippin' moron is not an endangered species yet. 
Think the big troll with his brains in his biceps.  If you have that kind of character played correctly, shooting will happen, whether you want it or not.

[Reaver]

I use a custom made dry erase magnetic board for my combat.  It's large enough 90cm X 90cm that I can hang it on the wall so all can see it. When combat happens I quickly sketch out the area (including cover) then place magnetic tokens on it for the combatants.

I find it gives combat a more tactical feel and helps you determine things like LOS at a glance... As well as who has cover, range for weapons, etc...  Which can be really useful for adding stress and excitement to a game without being overly harsh on the players as they now can visualize the battle field.

[WSN0W]

I go from complete verbal freeform descriptions to quick paper sketches to the full dry erase board with a more detailed layout depending on how serious I want to be with it. I lean more towards Exodus' view of encounter design. If the players do arrange a perfect ambush I go more towards the freeform desc and let them roll enough dice to feel like they earned something, but I definitely don't linger on all the nitty gritty of them rolling out their curb stomp.

Most encounters wind up in the middle ground of quick sketches on paper with maybe a static detail of the area on the whiteboard (the paper is easier for me to change while sitting and still having all my dice, notes, etc so it's not a complete stand up/sit down/up/down). I go for more of the Hong Kong Gun-Fu style of description (Most of the combatant PC's are 2 to 3 times faster and beyond human limits in some aspect (if not all) of physical prowess, might as well let them play it up). While SR definitely favors attack, especially when people really twink out their attack pools, cover, poor line of sight, range and not everyone having a 20 dice pool does mean a high reaction character can dodge and in most games I use the 4+ for hits on soak for PCs and cool NPCs.

Because of that style, I don't like to over lock things down with a grid because then it becomes a little restrictive. Layouts are good, as are having a solid idea of distances, but don't want to lock it down so the PC's don't do a dodge roll onto and across a table of flour and wind up with their gun in the face of the shooter before finishing him off with a blood splatter on his ghostly white flour covered face.

Ahh, John Woo...

[Exodus]

I almost forgot, how can anybody manage an ambush when things like ultrawideband radar, detect enemies extended, and a watcher spirit told to alert the summoner if someone it doesn't recognize comes within magic X 100 meters? Those are just things thought up off the top of my head too.

Reaver, when you use the dry erase board do you only sketch out the area the characters would know about or do you trust your players to avoid metagaming? I've tried both methods and I've found that the players enjoy it more when they don't know what's down the alleyway.

[Reaver]

A little of both really.

First: I sketch out what is obvious to their LOS. The room, the hallway and doors, the parking lot with cars, etc.

Next: as the players move their LOS, I sketch in more and more of the map, as needed.

[OFTHEHILLPEOPLE]

I'm just getting into GMing and playing Shadowrun so forgive me if I'm a little out of touch.  The main difference I see with Shadowrun and other RPGs is that it still takes pride in the fact that you don't have to lay out an elaborate map every single encounter and truly lets the players have some control over what happens around them, true to old gaming style.  How the rules are described to players and the opportunity to do extraordinary things makes the GM have to do less work when things get a little hairy.  That being said I would prefer to use open dialogue followed by a very crude sketch of the surroundings for the players to play within.  Nothing too elaborate and keeping it very simple so the players don't get too comfy and stop using their imagination because the map has everything on it.   

I also support Exodus's thoughts with the rule of "If there's no reason why is shouldn't be there, then it is there" rule.  That's pretty awesome and should be encouraged in players to reach out and make something up instead of feeling like if the GM doesn't say it's there then they are working with pretty much nothing.

[WellsIDidIt]

I almost forgot, how can anybody manage an ambush when things like ultrawideband radar, detect enemies extended, and a watcher spirit told to alert the summoner if someone it doesn't recognize comes within magic X 100 meters? Those are just things thought up off the top of my head too.

In my experience watchers are about as useful for watch duty as a jack-o-lantern. Sure it will stay there and watch, but unless things are very very obvious, it's rolling 2 dice on it's Perception to notice what's going on. As for who it recognizes? Expect to get bombarded with "Do we know this guy" thoughts as the watcher makes it's 2 dice Memory test.

Watchers are really, in my experience, only good for sending messages and "testing" for wards.

I agree though that smart facilities would have a hard time being ambushed unless from great range. Then again, great range is just a Longarms skill of 2 and a rifle away (skill of 2 so that you can take aim to negate range penalties with a scope). Average runner has about 4 agility. Add 2 Longarms and 2 Smartlink to that for a DP or 8, that allows for a +4/-4 on a sniping shot with a dice pool of 4 leftover. Even with a hunting rifle that's looking at 11 or 12 base damage.

Have your entire team set up for some shots and then rush in. Or one rigger commanding several drones equipped with rifles.

I actually use map tool (it's a freeware program) for doing my maps. I hook the laptop up to the big screen in the living room and have it set for a Ghosted Display (basically fog of war style where I control when/what unveils) on the tv and full display on the laptop. I usually do a basic map with just dimensions and general features and follow a similar rule of it's there if it makes any sense to be there. I use the same rule when players glitch though, and they tend to hit fire extinguishers (makeshift smoke grenades), sprinkler systems, and/or random office workers.

I actually recommend the program a lot if you have a good display for it. It lets you create "poglike" tokens for the characters and place them along the map where they are.

[Zilfer]

Hey don't forget moddifers to that watcher! If you told it to look/watch for anything it gets a +3 moddifer for looking doesn't it? I forget the other moddifers, but don't forget! they can be useful!

[JustADude]

Hey don't forget moddifers to that watcher! If you told it to look/watch for anything it gets a +3 moddifer for looking doesn't it? I forget the other moddifers, but don't forget! they can be useful!

Ah, good point. It at least gets them to the point where they can buy a hit.

Still not gonna work for much, but they'll at least be able to spot someone trying to open a door they were told to watch.

[Exodus]

Have your entire team set up for some shots and then rush in. Or one rigger commanding several drones equipped with rifles.

So you've got a handful of runners & some drones kitted out with hunting rifles that aren't exactly suited for combat ops. Lets say you've got 8 guns total, some of the runners won't have longarms skills but drones can make up for that. They're dispersed around the facility in question, in hiding, etc. Now what exactly does geeking 8 guards accomplish that would allow runners to just rush in and steal their stuff? What kind of facility has any major portion of their guards wandering around out in the open?

Of course an organized sniper strike is good for wetwork but it's messy and really hard to make it look like anything but a hit.