[Crunch]

As for fanaticism I'd say that neither All4BigGuns opinion that good non combat RPGs are impossible, nor Katrex's opinion that mechanics distract from story are examples of it. I'd just say that its two players with different styles expressing their preference. The fact that Guns got a reasoned response and Katrex got called a fanatic is an example of the behavior I've been objecting to here.

Really? Because the way I read it, Katrex just outright dismissed any possibility that a background, no matter how detailed or well-characterized, after you start on your sheet might create a "genuine" character, and declared that the One True Way to build a character is to write your background then, and only then, once the background is set in stone, fill in your sheet.

And you said that it was impossible to run a good game without combat. Actually your post was much closer to a "one true way" mandate than Katrex's.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually, that was me, but I was misquoted BY YOU in the use of the word 'impossible'. I merely said that I doubt the enjoyability of such a game, and then reiterated that I personally find it unbelievably boring. Interesting how the other side likes to twist one's words to change meaning in attempt to discredit the argument...

[Triggvi]

Actually, that was me, but I was misquoted BY YOU in the use of the word 'impossible'. I merely said that I doubt the enjoyability of such a game, and then reiterated that I personally find it unbelievably boring. Interesting how the other side likes to twist one's words to change meaning in attempt to discredit the argument...

Those who live in glass houses, dude.

[Crunch]

You're right that it was you. I apologize to JAD for the misattribution.

I question the possibility of such a thing.

You're wrong that I misquoted you.

[All4BigGuns]

Did I ever say impossible? No. Questioning it and saying blatantly that it is in fact impossible are two entirely different things, so yes, you did in fact misquote me, and you made a mistake as to the intent behind it (intent was explained in the post I made before this one).

[Black]

Suggest that people step away from this thread for a day or two and cool down. When your argueing about who is argueing and quoting / misquoting etc etc.  Then you've gone off-topic.

Topic in summary(my reading anyways)
- everyone has different play styles
- everyone creates characters differently
- no style is 'the right way'

I think we can agree on these at least?

And remember, don't post when angry

[Crunch]

Did I ever say impossible? No. Questioning it and saying blatantly that it is in fact impossible are two entirely different things, so yes, you did in fact misquote me, and you made a mistake as to the intent behind it (intent was explained in the post I made before this one).

Doubting the possibility of a thing and suspecting that it's impossible are functionally equivalent guns.

[slipped]

I agree on all three of those things.

Other posters here, notably those who favor more optimized styles, don't seem to agree with any of the three. Or at least their behavior towards anyone who plays differently than they do would lead to suspect that unfortunately it's not a point of commonality.

[All4BigGuns]

Did I ever say impossible? No. Questioning it and saying blatantly that it is in fact impossible are two entirely different things, so yes, you did in fact misquote me, and you made a mistake as to the intent behind it (intent was explained in the post I made before this one).

Doubting the possibility of a thing and suspecting that it's impossible are functionally equivalent guns.

Aye those are the same, but again you're attempting to deflect the point away from the fact that I did not blatantly say that such is impossible, which is what you have been implying.

Suggest that people step away from this thread for a day or two and cool down. When your argueing about who is argueing and quoting / misquoting etc etc.  Then you've gone off-topic.

Topic in summary(my reading anyways)
- everyone has different play styles
- everyone creates characters differently
- no style is 'the right way'

Actually most of us would agree with that. The fact is, the other side is far more often saying their way is 'right'.

[Katrex]

Please calm down people and stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

Appologies to the op for the way this thread turned out, It seems nothing more is to be gained here. i'd just lock it before people create any animosity amongst themselves.

[Crunch]

Actually most of us would agree with that. The fact is, the other side is far more often saying their way is 'right'.

Funny, because I have yet to see a thread where someone asked for help optimizing and had a bunch of story centric players jump in and shout them down for asking for help.

I've seen the opposite several times.

[Xzylvador]

Oh
My
Effing
$Deity

Can you guys really not post in a single thread without it turning into yet another of your own personal bitching places?
Different people have different opinions and play the game differently. Can't live with that fact? Then stay the f*ck away from threads where people don't agree with yours or at least keep yourself from posting the same damned opinion again and again and again and again.

[Shadowjack]

I would have to ask for some of this hostility to stop, too. I recall a week or so ago, things were a lot more peaceful here. I know it's hard to bite your tongue sometimes, there is a lot of crazy, heavily biased stuff said here and on any other boards, but it's best to just state your opinions peacefully and avoid getting into silly disputes. The vast majority of the time, people will not back down and admit they're wrong, it's just something you need to accept. We all have our own preferences and none of us will unify the masses to follow our style. That's the real genius of role playing, it can be done a million different ways and still be enjoyable

[Unahim]

Starting to get miffed about it as well. I personally enjoy story, background and optimisation equally, so both sides of this debate are starting to tick me off a bit.

There is no story or omptimisation centric, there is only the for- ehem, there is only having fun.

[Kat9]

For me, the process of character creation goes something like this.

Step 1:
- Character Concept: A this point, I have a vague idea of what I want to do with the character. Fish out of water ex-corporate hacker.
Step 2:
- The Build: At this point, I am starting to look at stats and gear. I've already got the vague idea that the character is a ex-corporate so I start looking at skills and equipment they might have on hand. At this stage, I start pestering my GM. "Do you think that they'd have X? No, well you're right. OK hmm, how about Y? Good? OK!" To me, its important to keep with the GM and make sure your character is going to fit the campaign.
Step 3:
- The Tweaking: Now we've got the concept and the stats/gear pretty much laid out. I sort of just sit and look over the sheet for a while, as ideas pop into mind I shift little adjustments. Maybe this contact becomes that contact, this knowledge skill becomes that one. As I am looking over the stats I am mulling over background and personality. I love to write, its a hobby of mine so the background and personality just sort of happen. For me, that is the really easy part. I start with a blank page and just see where the words take me.
Step 4
- The Art: Now I've got the concept, the stats, the personality and the background. Time to find just the right look to fit my mental image, its at this point I wish A)  I had more money, B) had a charitable artist friend or C) Was a visual artist myself!
Step 5
- The Manic Stage: OK art, concept, stats, background and personality are down. Now I get into the nitpicky stuff, "Where does the character live," "I'll fill out the 20 questions thing," "What's on this fake SIN anyhow?" I can really get into the little fiddly bits while I am eagerly awaiting the next session.
Step 6
- *sigh* The backup plan: What if the character dies? Well, I'll need a replacement then, won't I? See Step 1...

[Csjarrat]

and i do it totally different:
1- what does my team need that they currently don't have?
2- design char's stats, skills and gear to do that role very well, whilst adding flavour through secondary skills
3- create believe backstory to explain characters skills and motives
4- go play!

neither way is best, we all have fun!
for me, half the fun of shadowrun is in chargen. get a weird kick out of making a pretty solid character with a good story :-)