[Novocrane]

Let's do an example here:
Fichetti Executive Action modded for Firing Mode: Small (FA) and Extended Clip.
Here we have a Light Pistol that can fire SA, BF, or FA (including suppressive fire) all while using the Pistols skill.
Meanwhile the FN 5-7C holds 2 less rounds, doesn't have a FA setting, and falls under Automatics for some reason.
What is "unlike" about these two guns?

I think this demonstrates an issue with machine pistols falling under automatics skill, rather than any other aspect of the game.

[WellsIDidIt]

It's not just machine pistols. Look at Sport Rifles now.

If I take a Terracota Arms Carravan and slap Firing Mode:Large (BF) onto it, it still uses Longarms (since it's a Sport Rifle) when I fire it in burst mode. Same issue if you make it FA instead of BF. Longarms does cover using its weapons with burst fire and full auto and suppression. At that point, the Automatics skill just becomes an arbitrary selection of weapons. The one defining characteristic of the skill's classification, being an automatic weapon, is not solely available with that skill. At the same time, there are weapons in that skill that aren't automatic weapons.

And it brings up the question of "Why is an automatic rifle under a different skill (AR/BR vs. Sport Rifle/Sniper Rifle) when an automatic shotgun stays under the Longarms skill?"

I don't mind weapon classes. It's pretty much mandatory for game design. I would just like to see the skills and what they cover make sense.

[Anarkitty]

I suppose a question for those out there who actually have real-world experience with a variety of firearms would be appropriate:

What is most similar to you in your real-world experience?  What skills carry over from one class of firearms to another?  Are there any skills you have had to basically relearn with every new weapon or class of weapons?

• Firing automatic bursts long arms
• Firing single-shots from long arms
• Firing automatic (or burst fire) bursts from smaller weapons
• Firing single shots from smaller weapons

Now I'm all curious.  I'll have to ask my coworkers too, I have a couple who are gun nuts.

[FuelDrop]

Maybe change the categories a bit:
Small arms (Pistols and machine pistols)
Assault weapons (SMGs, Assault rifles and shotguns)
Long arms (as current but replace shotguns with battle rifles).

Meh, what do I know? Leave it as is, it's easier that way.

[DamienHollow]

I would say longarms are longarms, slide action, lever actions, bolt actions, and similar are all fairly close in terms of how you handle them.
Automatics (and the semi-automatic use there of) of the SMG and Rifle varieties are nearly identical and are often up/down scaled versions of each other.
Handguns are distinctive in how you handle them and how they are designed. Nothing else out there really shares much in common with the layout.
The two complicated ones are Machine Pistols and Battle Rifles. MP's are literally handguns being forced into doing a job the designs were not meant for ( a few notable exceptions being the MP7 and TMP.) Battle rifles are larger and heavier than assault rifles, often completely forgoing fully automatic fire in favor of accuracy but while keeping the ability to lay down round after round of aimed fire.
The issue is that arms aren't as cut and dry as "automatics." compare a Callico M960 to a Thompson Sub-Machinegun and you'll see why lumping them in the same category gets wonky.

[danny.slag]

Maybe change the categories a bit:
Small arms (Pistols and machine pistols)
Assault weapons (SMGs, Assault rifles and shotguns)
Long arms (as current but replace shotguns with battle rifles).

Meh, what do I know? Leave it as is, it's easier that way.

This makes a lot of sense, although if shotguns were actually made a mean weapon again I would think they would be their own catagory since the skills to fire a shotgun are very different than an smg or assault rifle. The only reason to currently lump them in is because no one would ever take the "shotgun skill" the way they are now. Other than that the above is very simple, logical and what I see as the most common sense solution without a bunch of wonky grey area. Also add the 4th catagory "heavy weapons" so:

Small arms (Pistols and machine pistols)
Assault weapons (SMGs, Assault rifles)
Shotguns (obvious, lol.)
Long arms (sniper, hunting, and battle rifles.)
Heavy weapons (LMG, MMG, HMG, cannons)

[Novocrane]

Long arms (as current but replace shotguns with battle rifles)

Once you remove the distinction of sports rifles using longarms & battle rifles using automatics, is there any good reason to distinguish between them as separate categories of firearm? BRs suddenly just become more expensive / less available SRs.

Machine Pistols likewise suffer a lack of identity once you take them out of automatics - one might as well ask whether they're heavy or light and be done with that, too.

That would leave you with;

Pistols (Heavy / Light / Holdout / Taser)
Assault (SMG / Assault Rifle / Shotgun)
Longarms (Rifles / Sniper Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Assault Cannons / Machine Guns / Grenade Launchers / Missile Launchers / Mortars)

... Heavy Weapons has a lot to it, but you could probably take out mortars.

[Aryeonos]

I think someone a ways back missed the point of my post, or I didn't phrase it right.

I'm actually quite comfortable with how the guns are set up currently, though I'd change a couple things, like putting MPs in with pistols, and breaking machine guns into their own skill, with launchers being separate. Assault cannons I should think would go with long arms, along with battle rifles. The idea is that each weapon type does get its own skill if you specialize, which makes the skills more or less mini skill groups.

Another thought would be sorting the weapons by their grip type and role. So handguns, PDWs, assault weapons, LSWs, DMRs, and support launchers. Make it so that certain weapons get a slight default bonus from other skill groups for those guns that don't quite fit all the way in one skill. So a machine pistol on single fire would get your full pistols skill, but if you used them on full auto they'd only get 1/3rd of your pistols skill rating unless you had the PDW skill. Your battle rifle on full auto would use the LSW skill but on semi auto would use the DMR skill, that kind of thing.
well I feel like I'm rambling.
But yes, Shotguns should get a bonus to special ammos being a payload weapon. +2s all around!

[RHat]

I'm actually quite comfortable with how the guns are set up currently, though I'd change a couple things, like putting MPs in with pistols, and breaking machine guns into their own skill, with launchers being separate. Assault cannons I should think would go with long arms, along with battle rifles. The idea is that each weapon type does get its own skill if you specialize, which makes the skills more or less mini skill groups.

I go back and forth on machine pistols - in doing that, you risk making Automatics too weak and Pistols too strong.  Heavy Weapons doesn't really need to be broken up, because all of what's in there isn't practical for most Shadowrun situations.  If a player wants a character to be good with those weapons, it is not fair (do to the rarity with which they are a viable solution) to ask them to invest in multiple skills.  Assault Cannons wouldn't make sense in Longarms, and make the skill too powerful - going too far in the other direction.  Battle Rifles into Longarms, however, would be good.  Combine that with some Shotgun fixes, and that's all Longarms needs to be a balanced skill.  Anything more is just change for the sake of change, and that's not good.

If you make that exchange from Automatics to Longarms for Battle Rifles, Automatics goes from One Skill to Rule Them All to a balanced skill revolving around having utility for any situation without being fantastic for nearly any - Longarms beats it for range flexibility (and with the right Shotgun changes, specific utility), Heavy Weapons beats it for Suppressing Fire and rapid fire, Pistols beats it for Concealability, but it has a little bit of everything - the Mario skill, basically.

[Novocrane]

I go back and forth on machine pistols - in doing that, you risk making Automatics too weak and Pistols too strong.

I don't see it. SMGs / Assault rifles generally have better damage, RC, AP, cost (for equivalent basic SMGs) ... where are BF/FA pistols getting the better end of the deal?

Assault Cannons wouldn't make sense in Longarms, and make the skill too powerful - going too far in the other direction.

I thought about this; there's also the fact that assault cannons would edge out sniper rifles' niche.

[Sacredsouless]

My shooting experience, being an M16 (I mostly fire it on semi), 240B (7.62 machine gun), SAW (5.56 machine gun), a buddies shotgun ( I don't remember the model but it was a pump), and his .30-06 (bolt-action), there was pretty minimal difference for me. The biggest differences between the weapons was rate of fire, recoil, and the sights. Otherwise I just used them like I would any other weapon and I did fine. So maybe I'm just good, but I really think its because all the weapons are pretty much shouldered the same. You stick the butt-stock in your shoulder, grab the pistol grip firmly, and assume a proper firing position.

So as to how to translate that, I don't really know. I don't think you properly can. But I do believe that the battle rifles are more akin to the snipers and shotguns. They are longer and most likely heavier than most of the assault rifles, plus I think most start out as semi-auto anyway. Since most of the hate seems to be directed at shotguns being weaker and battle rifles make the automatics group to strong, I think we should just move the battle rifles over to long arms. Also as a point, I think it makes sense to put machine pistols with other pistols, though since I never used them myself, I will defer to some else's greater experience. But since automatics are dominated by shouldered weapons, I don't think it makes since to have non-shouldered weapons included.

[RHat]

My shooting experience, being an M16 (I mostly fire it on semi), 240B (7.62 machine gun), SAW (5.56 machine gun), a buddies shotgun ( I don't remember the model but it was a pump), and his .30-06 (bolt-action), there was pretty minimal difference for me. The biggest differences between the weapons was rate of fire, recoil, and the sights. Otherwise I just used them like I would any other weapon and I did fine. So maybe I'm just good, but I really think its because all the weapons are pretty much shouldered the same. You stick the butt-stock in your shoulder, grab the pistol grip firmly, and assume a proper firing position.

The problem being discussed here is more a game issue than a simulation issue.  So, really, there's not much relevance to differences or similarities in the real life use of the weapon.

[WellsIDidIt]

The problem being discussed here is more a game issue than a simulation issue.  So, really, there's not much relevance to differences or similarities in the real life use of the weapon.

Why does there need to be a fourth weapons skill (Automatics)? Forcing a bunch of weapons into another skill instead of spreading them in other skills doesn't solve a game issue. It just creates a further break from reality. The issue is really in both areas.

In all reality, shooting is pretty much a point and click interface. Stance and recoil are the only things that change as you go from one hand, to two hand, to shouldered stances. Styles and sights are drastically different even within the current skills that.

The reason I go for folding MPs and SMGs into the Pistols group is that in SR they both fall into the "One Handed" category and are shorter ranged. Popping BRs and ARs into Longarms makes since since BRs and ARs are both rifles already and use the exact same stances that Shotguns, Sport Rifles and Sniper Rifles use.

[emsquared]

Stance and recoil are the only things that change as you go from one hand, to two hand, to shouldered stances.

Hmmm, that sounds familiar...

IMHO, pistols (anything where energy transfer is through hands and arms) and longarms (anything where the energy is transferred into your shoulder) are easily justifiable as two different skills, they simply relate differently to your body.
...
In reality, I'd say the skill-set changes from pistol to longarm, depending on whether you're using a stock (so a "pistol grip" shotgun with no stock, but say a fore-grip, would be a pistol skill roll ), because the only real difference between the two shooting techniques is how energy distribution is handled.

Which is to say I would fully back elimination of the Automatics Skill.

But then you have the issue raised by the post my quote is taken from, if you put a folding stock on a pistol or machine-pistol, do you then have to use Longarms?

[RHat]

The problem being discussed here is more a game issue than a simulation issue.  So, really, there's not much relevance to differences or similarities in the real life use of the weapon.

Why does there need to be a fourth weapons skill (Automatics)? Forcing a bunch of weapons into another skill instead of spreading them in other skills doesn't solve a game issue. It just creates a further break from reality. The issue is really in both areas.

More skills allows for more variety without risking balance.  Splitting Automatics down the middle like that would play havoc with the inter-skill balance, which is of course not good.  Conversely, what would be the purpose of its removal?