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Sprawl Gangers

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Sipowitz

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« Reply #135 on: <03-15-13/1626:58> »
That it pretty well disproves your argument that pre-painted increases the cost at the store when the most expensive are unpainted and  not assembled.
You didn't disprove anything.  You give no context.
Prepaints have been more expensive.  There is a reason none have ever lasted. 
Perhaps you want to point towards heroclix or clickytech?  Those would be collectibles. 

Sipowitz

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« Reply #136 on: <03-15-13/1644:54> »
Except trying to do both wont happen.  They are two very different production systems.

I have always been of the opinion that if you have time to play the game then you have time to paint for the game.

If you're good at chess, then you should be required to make all the pieces with a wooden lathe?

Sounds like shit logic.
If you want to drive a car you should mine the ore to build it. 

Right. Your logic is shit no matter how you break it down.

Reductio ad absurdum was the correct term for it by the way, slick.
Perhaps you should look up the term sophism.
Perhaps you should understand what "I am of the opinion" means.

The only way to give prepaints a chance to succeed will be to make them collectibles like heroclix.  If they do that it will die.  Shadowrun does not have the fanbase that Marvel or DC does.
They will not be able to give any kind of justice to customization with prepaints.
So you have a couple options.  You can get your instant gratification that prepaints gives you.   Rip open that packaging and your instantly playing, but with no options.   Or you have options, but are required to atleast put the models together.

They have said this is like Necromunda, has a campaign system and all of that jazz.  That means weapon upgrades, most likely cyberware, armor upgrades.  All of that will not be able to be done with prepaints.

CanRay

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« Reply #137 on: <03-15-13/1705:18> »
Children, play nice.

...

WHEN THE HELL DID I TURN INTO BULL?
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Linkdeath

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« Reply #138 on: <03-15-13/1759:05> »
@Linkdeath - while I appreciate your comments, I'm hoping they're unpainted and, in a perfect world, multi-part plastic which would allow for a lot more customization.

Your perfect world sounds like my nightmare. I traded an old laptop for having about two companies of 'Mechs assembled and painted. Minis that I probably had for a good ten years (in come cases). No, the perfect world would be having both options.

This. The people who are good at painting and assembling can always paint over existing schemes. The rest of humanity doesn't need to get the short end of the stick.

This. I couldn't agree more. Heck, I'll glue pieces together, just please don't ask me to paint them! I have neither the time nor the money for it!
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #139 on: <03-15-13/1909:16> »
Children, play nice.

...

WHEN THE HELL DID I TURN INTO BULL?

Welcome to the other side of the mirror, Alice. :D

CanRay

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« Reply #140 on: <03-16-13/0111:42> »
Welcome to the other side of the mirror, Alice. :D
Oh, I've been back and forth through the mirror many times for years.
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Sipowitz

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« Reply #141 on: <03-16-13/0228:03> »
This. I couldn't agree more. Heck, I'll glue pieces together, just please don't ask me to paint them! I have neither the time nor the money for it!
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a doodoohead, but I can't follow this.
It appears you are saying f they are prepainted you have the time and money, if they are not prepainted you don't have the time nor the money.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #142 on: <03-16-13/0237:37> »
This. I couldn't agree more. Heck, I'll glue pieces together, just please don't ask me to paint them! I have neither the time nor the money for it!
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a doodoohead, but I can't follow this.
It appears you are saying f they are prepainted you have the time and money, if they are not prepainted you don't have the time nor the money.

That's the problem with Warhammer. You have to pay a ludicrous price for miniatures that aren't even assembled, let alone painted, and then spend even more money buying paints and brushes and whatnot.
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Mara

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« Reply #143 on: <03-16-13/0309:12> »
See, Sprawl Gangers, from everything we have seen posted, is a Miniatures Wargame. It is not a MIniatures Board Game like Battletech and Leviathans(at least..I really hope it is like what I define as a wargame). That means it is part of The Hobby. The Hobby is the full range of miniatures work, from assembling, pinning, and modifiying all the way up to paints and playing. I would expect that you would want to make sure all your gangers are easily identifiable, so you don't want them pre-painted and pre-assembled if you buy, say, 3 Male Human Eye Fivers with Predator V Pistol, and they all look the same. And, then, say you have something happen that let's you give one of those Eye Fivers, say, an Ingram Smartgun or an HVAR, and you need to change the ganger. Do you really want to have to go buy a new model? or just be able to strip the hand, do a quick hack and swap conversion, and have it WYSIWYG, like I would expect in any Miniature Wargame.

One thing I must say about the idea that it is more costly to make the molds for non-metal as it is metal. There are a number of companies that are making use of spin-casting with special, hybrid formulas of resin and plastic. These produce much more detailed castings, and cost comparable to metal, but, except for GW's formula, are much more stable in price. The most expensive minis I know of, of course, are the Forge World Titans for Warhammer 40K Apocalypse Scale games, which are solid resin(not plastic-resin), and that you have to buy them in parts.

Black

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« Reply #144 on: <03-16-13/0422:17> »
Agree with the need for personalisation.  if your playing a game, like necromunda, which is small unit tactics, you will want to personalise your minis.  We arnt talking major armies here.
So factors in favour of the mini's being non-painted:
- cheaper to set up - particularly when mini's are not your core product and may or may not become the next big thing.
- ability to customise the minis
- potentially appeals to the existing minature wargame market, allowing catalyst to bring in new blood.  The 40k market is nothing to sneeze at.  They can maintain a monthly glossy magaizine, dedicated shopfronts in every city, their own conventions etc.  Even if Shadowrun tapped a small proportion, it would bring in a lot of additional revenue.
- wargames have more dedicated, long-term (and thus continued new revenue) market.  Wargamers like buying additional minis, starting new armies, look forward to expansions etc
- Wargamers are more likely to make/invest in terrain etc.

Factors in favour of the mini's being painted
- easier for non-wargamers to pick up the game quickly and play
- more board game / occassional play appeal.  Dont need to be dedicated to the game to buy it and play.  Eg Frag, Zombicide etc.
- if collectable, appeals to an existing market - but this market has been fickle in the past (eg mageknight)
- Expensive to set up, but may not be has expensive long to term to maintain... providing you have a long term.
- terrain will need to come with core set, or be available at limited additional cost.  The market being appealed to here doesn't want to paint etc, also unlikely to want to make their own terrain. 

My thoughts are that its likely going to be unpainted minis.  Doesn't bother be if they are.  But I know its not everyone's cup of tea.  No use argueing the pros and cons here too much, or getting upset before we even know.  Best to wait and see.

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Change perception and reality will follow
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Mara

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« Reply #145 on: <03-16-13/0443:37> »
- wargames have more dedicated, long-term (and thus continued new revenue) market.  Wargamers like buying additional minis, starting new armies, look forward to expansions etc
- Wargamers are more likely to make/invest in terrain etc.

Yeah...this is one thing I really think people need to think about:
Sprawl Gangers is a miniature wargame. It is not going to appeal to the RPGer who has no interesting in Miniatures or Wargaming.
If the RPGer is getting the minis, they are likely to represent their own character, and thus, should be more flexible.
If the RPGer is, like me, also a wargamer, they are going to want to make their miniatures unique to avoid confusion on the
    battlefield.
On the other hand, they are using CMON(Cool Mini or Not!) to do their minis. This means they want the miniatures to be quality, where they will appeal to cross-over purchases for other games, or people buying the minis for the joy of painting the miniatures(Like I have been known to).
These are the people that I believe Sprawl Gangers is intended to appeal to. From there, they get their first glimpses at a large world, and it can be a method of bringing people over to Shadowrun the RPG, just like the card game will probably have things that help draw people over to the RPG.
In otherwords, I do not think Sprawl Gangers is intended to solely be something to get RPGers to branch out into wargaming, but to get Wargamers to try Shadowrun.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #146 on: <03-16-13/0501:00> »
As for prepainted plastic...

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6269/reviewshadowrun1mo5tm8.jpg

.. that could be arranged.

Black

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« Reply #147 on: <03-16-13/0737:42> »
Hey Wak, what are we looking at there?
Perception molds reality
Change perception and reality will follow
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CanRay

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« Reply #148 on: <03-16-13/0843:34> »
Hey Wak, what are we looking at there?
According to Mitch at Harebrained Schemes, Dolls.  :P
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Bull

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« Reply #149 on: <03-16-13/0857:32> »
Hey Wak, what are we looking at there?

Shadowrun Duels. a 1:12 scale (6 inches average) action figure game that Wizkids put out.

Bull