[Crunch]

My point was that you have to draw the line somewhere, and that drawing it short of Ares Dragon (or rather short of Ares Dragon with all the ware i want and a top of the line ground vee)is no more artificial than drawing it short of T-Bird.

In other words "I want it" is not an argument.

[All4BigGuns]

You call a Bulldog top of the line? No wonder... Geez

[Maddoux1]

All4BigGuns, you're not looking at what anybody here is saying.  Nothing has been said that there won't be two or three man aircraft, except by you.  We state that we expect Rigger 5 to have more versatile aircraft, and you tell us that we're foolish and wrong.  That it will be more expensive.

We show you how you can make it work, and you come up with excuses as to why it won't.  You tell us "It should be this way because I want it to be this way." and we're explaining why we feel the way that we do.  You insult us, and then get mad when we say something that seems like it could be an insult.

I'm glad that you're not in my group, I'll say that, I think that we have very different views on what games should be like.  No matter who got what they wanted, the other would be playing a game that they don't want to play.

From everything that I have heard, the developers were very careful about balancing everything.  I have faith that there will be smaller helicopters that will be more suitable to starting characters.   Until that time, just try to have fun.  If your GM is willing to flood you with Nuyen, fantastic.

But, if I had 1,000,000 Nuyen, I'd be retiring in  2075 and not risking my life as a Shadowrunner.  Maybe that's just me...

[Digital_Viking]

In other words "I want it" is not an argument.

Indeed.

[Maddoux1]

Well it is, but its just not a great one.

[Crunch]

You call a Bulldog top of the line? No wonder... Geez

It's pretty much the best at what it does, yeah.

[Michael Chandra]

I'll try asking the question once more, because I really want an actual full answer on it: If you want air transport for not just the rigger but an entire team, why must you get a Helicopter and not a much cheaper airplane? Is this about transport, in-city flying, dropping in on facilities, some other reason?

[ZeConster]

Rotorcraft and VTOL, to me, seem to fill a niche, namely that of rooftop approaches and departures. If you have something that'll pass for a landing strip available, other aircraft get the job done more cheaply - the Cessna C750 offers 4 seats for 146k, while 4 Nightwings provide you with a stealthy approach and departure for 80k.

[All4BigGuns]

All4BigGuns, you're not looking at what anybody here is saying.  Nothing has been said that there won't be two or three man aircraft, except by you.  We state that we expect Rigger 5 to have more versatile aircraft, and you tell us that we're foolish and wrong.  That it will be more expensive.

We show you how you can make it work, and you come up with excuses as to why it won't.  You tell us "It should be this way because I want it to be this way." and we're explaining why we feel the way that we do.  You insult us, and then get mad when we say something that seems like it could be an insult.

I'm glad that you're not in my group, I'll say that, I think that we have very different views on what games should be like.  No matter who got what they wanted, the other would be playing a game that they don't want to play.

From everything that I have heard, the developers were very careful about balancing everything.  I have faith that there will be smaller helicopters that will be more suitable to starting characters.   Until that time, just try to have fun.  If your GM is willing to flood you with Nuyen, fantastic.

But, if I had 1,000,000 Nuyen, I'd be retiring in  2075 and not risking my life as a Shadowrunner.  Maybe that's just me...

You're acting like character generation (once getting to resources) is the character walking naked into some really open-minded shop with a fistful of cash and buying everything right then. It's not. Those resources represent stuff gained over the entire period of time before game play starts.

You're just not putting forth things that are worth serious consideration. The "the rest of the team pitches in" isn't because of the fact that there is a good chance the characters have never met before campaign start.

And I'm not saying there won't be, just that I doubt that there will be very much reduction in price, if any at all, because of the attitude I'm seeing here.

[Crunch]

My point was that you have to draw the line somewhere, and that drawing it short of Ares Dragon (or rather short of Ares Dragon with all the ware i want and a top of the line ground vee)is no more artificial than drawing it short of T-Bird.

In other words "I want it" is not an argument.

[All4BigGuns]

What your arguments are boiling down to seems to be "I don't want people to have it." And that is even less of one.

[Maddoux1]

Look, you're not making any good points either.

I do not run, nor play, in Shadowrun games where the characters don't know each other.  As a game master, I write my campaigns around the group of runners, as a player I build a team.  So, no, I don't think about games where the runners have had no previous contact.  I don't even see how it could work, unless they all have a common Johnson who keeps trying to force them to work together.

If, as a group of players, you all decide that you want certain equipment (like your helicopter), one player should not be forced to take on the burden upon himself.  That's not fair to the player.  His character has to be weaker so the group gets what they want.

If you, as a player alone, have decided that you want this, and its too expensive to build with your character.?  As a GM my answer is to offer you a loan.  You get your very own contact too, 7/0 rating.  You can have it, but you'll have to pay for the rest of it in game.  Ultimately, twice what you owe.  And that contact will be seeking payment constantly.   Over time, your other contacts will be pestered.  Other players will be pestered.  But you'll have the gear.

If you turn that down, its too bad.

Look, the rules seem very balanced from what I've seen.  I've been comfortable with each character built for the system, including their finances.

What your arguments are boiling down to seems to be "I don't want people to have it." And that is even less of one.

Not at all.  My argument is "I want people to have it, its a great character goal!  I can't wait until we create the story in which he gets it."

[All4BigGuns]

If you, as a player alone, have decided that you want this, and its too expensive to build with your character.?  As a GM my answer is to offer you a loan.  You get your very own contact too, 7/0 rating.  You can have it, but you'll have to pay for the rest of it in game.  Ultimately, twice what you owe.  And that contact will be seeking payment constantly.   Over time, your other contacts will be pestered.  Other players will be pestered.  But you'll have the gear.

If you turn that down, its too bad.

So, to you, it's perfectly acceptable to have to give up months and months worth of saving for advancement to be able to have it? This is just obscene. The generation resources for a character are just that, for that character.

I do not run, nor play, in Shadowrun games where the characters don't know each other.  As a game master, I write my campaigns around the group of runners, as a player I build a team.  So, no, I don't think about games where the runners have had no previous contact.  I don't even see how it could work, unless they all have a common Johnson who keeps trying to force them to work together.

You want that, fine, but that doesn't mean that others who don't mind characters not already knowing each other should have to lose out because you refuse to consider the option.

[Maddoux1]

So, to you, it's perfectly acceptable to have to give up months and months worth of saving for advancement to be able to have it? This is just obscene. The generation resources for a character are just that, for that character.

No, its called commerce.  Capitalism.  Finances.  Its how you get anything.

You want that, fine, but that doesn't mean that others who don't mind characters not already knowing each other should have to lose out because you refuse to consider the option.

They actually should.  They should lose out on starting with a team that's used to working together.  They should lose out on being perfectly equipped to work with each other.

[Crunch]

What your arguments are boiling down to seems to be "I don't want people to have it." And that is even less of one.

I'm arguing that I don't see a compelling reason to change the existing pricing table. Your counterpoint is "but I want a helicopter! No not that helicopter! No I want it and that Cyberwear. No the helicopter, the cyberwear and a Truck." It's not very convincing. Talk to your GM and see if he'll house rule you some options, but its not cause for a change to the rules.