[MijRai]

I think there's some fanboys about these parts.

Why don't we look at evidence, rather than testimony:

@ Critias
Could You please explain why 4 Traditions that are in SR4A where omitted in the SR5 Street Grimoire only to be printed in the Shadow spells PDF ?
For Me as an outstanding Person this looks exactly like CGL has been withholding some of the Material just to make extra Cash with this PDF.
From what I've read from You I consider you as a sincere Person and Freelancer and If you say that the two branches ( E-Books and Standard Books) are working seperately  I take your Word ! But from my Point of View this looks extremely either like Money grubbing or extreme lack of communicating between those two departments and more than just a coincidence that exactly those 4 Traditions that are missing in Street Grimoire now apppear in Shadow Spells....

with a wary Dance
Medicineman

I'm sorry, but the fact is that quite a few things, not just Traditions but spells and powers that were in SM were not in SG, and wind up in SS just a couple months later.  That looks like withholding content to sell a $7 .pdf to me. 

Believe what you want, I guess.  But it's pretty clear to me, and several others, what happened.

Saying "nuh uh, they said it was two different writing teams!" is a little laughable, too.

Fanboys?  I fully admit I love the Shadowrun setting, for the most part (CFD has been something of an issue with me).  However, I have some pretty serious issues and qualms about Catalyst and Shadowrun 5th Edition right now.  At the same time, it's not because of them trying to rip me off, it's with the quality of their work.  In my opinion, there shouldn't need to be multiple pages of errata, or dozens of typos in a single 300-400 page book.  There should be consistency. 

Medicineman, despite his familiarity and experience with Shadowrun, isn't 'evidence' that Catalyst is gouging it's fan-base.  In fact, the quote you took has him saying he believes Critias.  That means he doesn't agree with you.   In fact, he mentions that it could be an 'extreme lack of communication'.  We know that's been going on for a while over at Catalyst.  Stolen Souls and Street Grimoire having the same power, with wildly different interpretations?  The sheer amount of errors that haven't been rectified before going to print?  People haven't been talking, that's obvious (and is supposedly being fixed). 

Furthermore, print-books have size-limits in comparison to e-books (and cost a lot more on both sides), and Street Grimoire was 40 pages or so longer than Street Magic.  It costs money to add more pages, both for the writers, the ink/paper, the binding, the weight for shipping, etc.  It's definitely possible that they couldn't fit everything in. 

Instead of saying 'I think they're ripping us off', you're saying 'They're ripping us off, and anyone who disagrees is oblivious'.  It's both claiming something you have no proof for, and belittling the people who disagree.  That, and when a person who works for Catalyst says what's going on (which has plenty of proof if you look over the forums), you say they are wrong. 

Now, since it keeps coming up, what would proof be?  Now, there's two big options here; either you have a quote or something from Catalyst indicating their intent to gouge us, or you have a trend showing multiple 'Day 1 DLC'-type situations (to use your phrase for it).  This has happened once, now.  Once is not a trend.  There's no pattern, no indication that this was anything more than an isolated event or a mistake.  If, when the augmentation book comes out, two months later a 7 dollar 'extra cyber and bioware' book comes out, or after Run Faster comes a 7 dollar 'here's some extra splats to play' book, then you may be right. 

[SmilinIrish]

So maybe this debate could start its own thread.  Was really hoping to see discussion about specific adept powers or spells and so forth. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

I don't think it really takes conspiracy level coordination, it's one company, it's commonly used tactic -- it's just slimy and they're gouging us, is all.

I also believe Critias, he seems nice enough -- but he wasn't necessarily informed, and having two separate teams of writers in no way keeps it from happening.

As to what I'm going to do about -- for one thing, I don't don't plan to shut up about it.

I also gave both products a 1 star reviews on Drivethrurpg.com.

[Critias]

So maybe this debate could start its own thread.  Was really hoping to see discussion about specific adept powers or spells and so forth.

I'm not entirely certain it needs three threads, personally.

[adzling]

it's a big hairball of a mess, it just makes the team look hapless.
commanding voice multiple cockups, revisions and retconing is laughably amateurish.
we saw it start in core 5e and it has continued unabated, perhaps even gotten worse.
i don't whether to laugh or cry.

[Parker]

     Oy with the kibbitzing, already!  Here's some fatherly advice for Sir Prometheus  and the silent majority represented by his bickering.  Stop wasting money on Shadowrun products you've already judged a waste of time and money.   Now put the aluminum foil hat back on and hide those dice before Catalyst sends the Underwear Gnomes to your house to steal them and laugh, as you cry to the heavens.  And don't be surprised if they send a rep to lick your tears with pleasure at your grief.  

[Michael Chandra]

See, here's what I did: I decided to wait and see what people say about the thing, before deciding whether to get it.

As for the Norse tradition, I simply plucked that from SR4 for the NPC* that follows it. Strangely enough Shadow Spells switched it to Logic. I should read its description better, see whether the switch from Charisma (which all the religions with Guardian spirits use) to Logic makes sense. Honestly, from what I read about them negotiating with their Spirits, I kinda don't see it making sense but eh, easy enough to houserule. Heck, we houseruled SR4 Chaos Magic since SR5 Chaos Magic is actually significantly different from Hermetic Magic but the player wanted to keep his SR4 tradition for fitting with his character.

*: Technically the NPC is a Free Spirit so it doesn't really matter. ^_^ It's just weird.


Now, just in case people haven't read the other topic, here's an important quote and link and honestly, we can just leave it at Critias' perfect answer.

@ Critias
Could You please explain why 4 Traditions that are in SR4A where omitted in the SR5 Street Grimoire only to be printed in the Shadow spells PDF ?
For Me as an outstanding Person this looks exactly like CGL has been withholding some of the Material just to make extra Cash with this PDF.
From what I've read from You I consider you as a sincere Person and Freelancer and If you say that the two branches ( E-Books and Standard Books) are working seperately  I take your Word ! But from my Point of View this looks extremely either like Money grubbing or extreme lack of communicating between those two departments and more than just a coincidence that exactly those 4 Traditions that are missing in Street Grimoire now apppear in Shadow Spells....

with a wary Dance
Medicineman

You guys remember how Commanding Voice showed up in both Stolen Souls and Street Grimoire?  That's an example of how the various mini-branches of the game company don't always coordinate very well.  It is, in part, evidence of the lack of communication between groups working on different projects.  One could also point to, for instance, the general chaos of the last few years.  There's thread after thread of problems that have erupted due to a lack of communication, coordination, and cohesion within the game line.  It is, in fact, a little ironic to me, here, that I'm now having to point out this sort of thing to some of you. 

We've had thread after thread about Jackpointers posting after their death, powers being replicated in more than one book, pieces of gear that immediately make other gear obsolete, and dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of similar SNAFUs due to a lack of communication within the company...and yet here we are, suddenly, with folks insisting I prove that there's a lack of communication within the company.  I hope the cometragedy of that isn't lost on everyone but me.

What may have happened, believe it or not, was the e-book line developer trying to improve on all that, and coordinating with the main line developer, basically saying "Hey, has anyone called dibs on _____ yet?  Have you got the word count for it in your book?  No?  Okay, I'll add it to mine."  Peter got in a little work on Grimoire, as I understand it, and that would've given him the opportunity to keep an eye on that book's progress, see what material was going into it and what wasn't, and then to try and squeeze what he could into his e-book.  This would be a sign of improved communication, one of those changes Jason promised a few months ago, arguably when these errors and inconsistencies were at their worst, amidst the chaos of convention season. 

Print books have limits on space that e-books flatly don't, and the e-book line -- in general! -- exists specifically to pick up that slack (it's how Way of the Adept got written, not to mention Land of Promise;  they're cheaper to produce, we get paid less to write them, they don't have printing costs, artwork's often recycled and as such free, etc, etc).  Something not making it into a print book is not the same thing as something being cut from that print product;  Jason's not in the habit of green-lighting folks to write stuff, and then not using it. 

You're free to disbelieve me if you want.  My name's not in the credits of either book, I didn't have anything to do with 'em, directly (and I think the costs of Adept Ways kind of show you I wasn't writing them).  I'm just telling you how the line has worked, traditionally (hardly anyone took a look at my e-books before they were published, unless you count me coordinating with myself between Land of Promise and Elven Blood, a Missions product). 

You're free to think there's a well-coordinated conspiracy going on in CGL, where our editor's got the time to go through and snip stuff out of one book to include it in another, where we've got multiple design teams working together so smoothly that we're seamlessly cutting material from one book and creating another, whole-cloth, in order to get extra money from you (all just a few weeks after us tripping on our dicks and putting one power, in two very different forms, into two completely unrelated books). 

Think what you want to think.  Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so.  I'm just doing what I can to clear things up, and ask you to at least state it's your opinion, not describing it matter-of-factly, when you have no evidence of such wrongdoing (and when, in fact, writers and line developers are trying to be open with you about the design process). 

Being a PDF e-book though, this would not be Missions legal correct?

Unless something has changed, it's specifically the "Options" line of e-books that are, well, optional (and as such not Missions-legal).  Not every e-book.

[FastJack]

Please remember, you can dislike the products and Catalyst as much as you want and make comments about them, but do not post criticisms and put-downs about other posters.

[ZeConster]

Obvious typo: according to the book the Mana Ebb ritual cannot be successfully performed in an area with a positive background count.

[Tarislar]

Yes, really. One dmg box is in no way worth 1pp. Living focus is useless, was in 4th too. Why not just have your Mage sustain it? 1pp is a lot!

Then I assume you feel Pain Resistance is too expensive & that just removes the penalty from 1 Damage Box ?
Maybe the Mage isn't interested in Sustaining spells on you & taking that -2 themselves & reducing their own dice while trying to cast Fireballs.




Question about Living Focus for all.

Is it just ONE spell up to Magic Rating, or can it be up to Magic Rating in Force of spells?

Because while it might be expensive,  I'm thinking you could buff the **** out of someone with Force-1 + Reagents spells.

Adept w/ Intuition, Body, Willpower, Combat Sense, Armor, Reaction, Reflexes......... I see them bursting with aura light like they just went all Super-Sayan (sp),  before kicking in a door.

[firebug]

Is it just ONE spell up to Magic Rating, or can it be up to Magic Rating in Force of spells?

Because while it might be expensive,  I'm thinking you could buff the **** out of someone with Force-1 + Reagents spells.

Adept w/ Intuition, Body, Willpower, Combat Sense, Armor, Reaction, Reflexes......... I see them bursting with aura light like they just went all Super-Sayan (sp),  before kicking in a door.

...With a -12 to all actions.

It seems like it's only one spell though, and all it does it make the Adept take the penalties instead, really.

[Ariketh]

Question about Living Focus for all.

Is it just ONE spell up to Magic Rating, or can it be up to Magic Rating in Force of spells?

Because while it might be expensive,  I'm thinking you could buff the **** out of someone with Force-1 + Reagents spells.

Adept w/ Intuition, Body, Willpower, Combat Sense, Armor, Reaction, Reflexes......... I see them bursting with aura light like they just went all Super-Sayan (sp),  before kicking in a door.

It reads to me as a single spell, not unlike a spell focus (which it is directly compared to) and focused concentration quality.

That said, without reagents, I don't see any balance issues to splitting up the capacity (as it were) between multiple spells. With reagents.... it leads to all sorts of mayhem as you point out.

-Ariketh

[Michael Chandra]

*reads Shadow Spells*

*starts cackling*

My players are going to 'enjoy' this...

[Csjarrat]

yeah, i got some ideas for some seriously nasty vampires lol

[Patrick Goodman]

yeah, i got some ideas for some seriously nasty vampires lol

That brings a smile to my face...and I didn't even have anything to do with the book.