[DeathStrobe]

I personally think the 4e matrix rules were fine, they were just poorly explained and not and laid out with a whole lot of thought. Matrix rules basically worked exactly the same in and out of the matrix, simple, used the same parameters that the rest of the game uses, also simple. The problem being book layout, lack of diagrams/tables that helped spell out how actually simple it all is. The matrix rules for 5e that I`ve read so far are a step in the wrong direction, and gimping the rest of the world to throw decker/crackers a bone was a bonehead move.

After playing/reading pathfinder, shadowruns books look like they were written by a golden god of editing though. Pathfinder being a game known for being "simpleñ and "easy to pick up". So it could be allot worse.

The 4th ed Matrix was terrible and was nothing like the rest of the game. First off, you needed to use program + skill for dice pool, as opposed to every other test using attribute + skill. Then there is how everything is a painful extended test that took forever to resolve. Then there is the ambiguity of what security levels mean. Pretty much you always needed to hack admin writes just to make sure you can do what you need to do. Skinlinking shenanigans that make you unhackable.

5th's Matrix is a god send in comparison. Attribute + skill with gear acting for limits, like every other test in the game. Tests are all oppose tests which makes everything resolve faster. Actions have clear Mark levels to indicate what you can and cannot do with your privilege. Now there is clear incentives to be online so the hacker can hack.

[Critias]

For the life of me, I can't remember what book the list illustration in the post comes from:

Anyone?

Fan art, I think.

[Kincaid]

For the life of me, I can't remember what book the list illustration in the post comes from:

Anyone?

Fan art, I think.

http://jarow.deviantart.com/art/Shadowrun-Noir-365746873

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

While the author of the article talks about 'we have smartphones that can do more!!' in regards to the Matrix rules- and yes, having the ability to open up multiple search windows would have been great back in the day - one does have to remember that generally, what can be done in the Matrix as of the current edition is what can be done IRL as of the current edition, just with bells and whistles (i.e. full simsense).  And honestly, I've rarely had a problem with either the matrix or the rigging rules.  What one must also remember about them is that both sets, and the explanations for both sets, need to describe in sufficient detail an extraordinarily complex universe.

The rigging rules for all intents and purposes need to describe the entirety of the Real World, physics and all - because the straight-out combat rules really don't do so - with various levels of telepresence thrown into the mix, which define how much assistance you can give or get in order to do something with your vehicle, whether it weighs 0.003 gram or 10,000,000,000 metric tons.  Rigger rules also have to essentially explain WHY that happens, whether on the ground or in the air or in the water or (now) in space, which is a crapton of explanation and rules.  Vehicle rules in EVERY game are an incredibly complex issue, which is why some games simply dodge the entire thing.

Creating Matrix rules faces issues at least as bad, because the rules of real world programming and networking are changing on a daily fraggin' basis.  So not only do you need to describe - in layman's terms - how things work, but then figure out how a super-computer-geek is going to make them not work in her favor.  On top of that, the designers had to then create how someone would not only find those rules they could bend and break, but figure out which rules were utterly immutable and which ones were ones that could be broken by those the Matrix (i.e. Resonance) really likes.  And once that's figured out, not only explain their half-imaginary universe, but then create the rules describing it.

And in both cases, once they're done, they get to sit back and listen to people bitch about some little corner of it not being absolutely perfect and understandable.  :/

[Reaver]

While the author of the article talks about 'we have smartphones that can do more!!' in regards to the Matrix rules- and yes, having the ability to open up multiple search windows would have been great back in the day - one does have to remember that generally, what can be done in the Matrix as of the current edition is what can be done IRL as of the current edition, just with bells and whistles (i.e. full simsense).  And honestly, I've rarely had a problem with either the matrix or the rigging rules.  What one must also remember about them is that both sets, and the explanations for both sets, need to describe in sufficient detail an extraordinarily complex universe.

The rigging rules for all intents and purposes need to describe the entirety of the Real World, physics and all - because the straight-out combat rules really don't do so - with various levels of telepresence thrown into the mix, which define how much assistance you can give or get in order to do something with your vehicle, whether it weighs 0.003 gram or 10,000,000,000 metric tons.  Rigger rules also have to essentially explain WHY that happens, whether on the ground or in the air or in the water or (now) in space, which is a crapton of explanation and rules.  Vehicle rules in EVERY game are an incredibly complex issue, which is why some games simply dodge the entire thing.

Creating Matrix rules faces issues at least as bad, because the rules of real world programming and networking are changing on a daily fraggin' basis.  So not only do you need to describe - in layman's terms - how things work, but then figure out how a super-computer-geek is going to make them not work in her favor.  On top of that, the designers had to then create how someone would not only find those rules they could bend and break, but figure out which rules were utterly immutable and which ones were ones that could be broken by those the Matrix (i.e. Resonance) really likes.  And once that's figured out, not only explain their half-imaginary universe, but then create the rules describing it.

And in both cases, once they're done, they get to sit back and listen to people bitch about some little corner of it not being absolutely perfect and understandable.  :/

Touche

[adzling]

You know I pretty much agree with you (it's hard to write good rules) except for the last sentence.

While the author of the article talks about 'we have smartphones that can do more!!' in regards to the Matrix rules- and yes, having the ability to open up multiple search windows would have been great back in the day - one does have to remember that generally, what can be done in the Matrix as of the current edition is what can be done IRL as of the current edition, just with bells and whistles (i.e. full simsense).  And honestly, I've rarely had a problem with either the matrix or the rigging rules.  What one must also remember about them is that both sets, and the explanations for both sets, need to describe in sufficient detail an extraordinarily complex universe.

The rigging rules for all intents and purposes need to describe the entirety of the Real World, physics and all - because the straight-out combat rules really don't do so - with various levels of telepresence thrown into the mix, which define how much assistance you can give or get in order to do something with your vehicle, whether it weighs 0.003 gram or 10,000,000,000 metric tons.  Rigger rules also have to essentially explain WHY that happens, whether on the ground or in the air or in the water or (now) in space, which is a crapton of explanation and rules.  Vehicle rules in EVERY game are an incredibly complex issue, which is why some games simply dodge the entire thing.

Creating Matrix rules faces issues at least as bad, because the rules of real world programming and networking are changing on a daily fraggin' basis.  So not only do you need to describe - in layman's terms - how things work, but then figure out how a super-computer-geek is going to make them not work in her favor.  On top of that, the designers had to then create how someone would not only find those rules they could bend and break, but figure out which rules were utterly immutable and which ones were ones that could be broken by those the Matrix (i.e. Resonance) really likes.  And once that's figured out, not only explain their half-imaginary universe, but then create the rules describing it.

And in both cases, once they're done, they get to sit back and listen to people bitch about some little corner of it not being absolutely perfect and understandable.  :/

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You mean they DON'T get to sit back and listen to people bitch?  Wow!!

[Sithlis]

About half of what is being posted in this thread just looks like bitch ing about rules to me. I'm just gonna throw out a classic bit from white wolf.  "If you don't like a rule don't use it."

[Lucean]

Yes, Sithlis, that's a good advice.
We avoid vehicles when we can, because of the speed rules. The stuff we don't like might receive house rules over shorter or longer period of time.

[pariah3j]

Personally I don't know a system that me and my old group played that didn't have a rule or 2 that was flat out ignored or completely house ruled to make it better/fit our needs. No system is perfect, and the more complex it gets, the less perfect it usually seems to be. Shadowrun is fairly complex, thus theres alot of room for break-down. I personally feel that for what all the system covers, it does most of it very well. It has 3 worlds in 1 that all overlay and play along side one another, I haven't seen a system that handles that, much less many that would handle it well.

[Aryeonos]

In all honesty once I got a couple well laid out hacking guides then went back and reread the rules they all made perfect sense and seemed much simpler, it`s not that the rules were bad 4e (the edition I play) it`s that they just werent laid out great in the book. They felt realistic and flexible, and in the rare occation I had to hack and fight at the same time I really didnt suffer. You just have to think tactically. Yes, you can munchkin to make yourself damn near unhackable, but then you`re dedicating a lot of time and resources to keeping your comlink that way, I`ll just find a way around it, like following your signal and dropping some neurostun on your ass.

[adzling]

haha no i mean its not just one little corner of the rules.
Rather there are whole swathes/ sections of rules that don't work/ are poorly written so as to make their intent a task of divination.(force 12 required to succeed).

You mean they DON'T get to sit back and listen to people bitch?  Wow!!

[firebug]

It always amuses me when someone tries to call out one game as being needlessly complex, not realizing that pointing out the most complex bits and saying "What the crap?!" would be like me pointing to how difficult medical school is in real life and then getting angry at the entire economy for having some really difficult careers.

Especially since, by virtue of being essentially "a simulation that, rather than running on a computer, is running on your GM's brain", all paper and pencil RPGs are gonna be complex.  It's not a videogame where your PS4 does all the work for you, and it's not a linear, 30 minute boardgame.

Not that every player needs to even know how it works, anyways.  Most of my players don't understand most of the things possible in the game.  They just state "I wanna try and do this." and then it's up to me to know/figure out how that'd be accomplished.

[EltonJ]

It always amuses me when someone tries to call out one game as being needlessly complex, not realizing that pointing out the most complex bits and saying "What the crap?!" would be like me pointing to how difficult medical school is in real life and then getting angry at the entire economy for having some really difficult careers.

Especially since, by virtue of being essentially "a simulation that, rather than running on a computer, is running on your GM's brain", all paper and pencil RPGs are gonna be complex.  It's not a videogame where your PS4 does all the work for you, and it's not a linear, 30 minute boardgame.

Not that every player needs to even know how it works, anyways.  Most of my players don't understand most of the things possible in the game.  They just state "I wanna try and do this." and then it's up to me to know/figure out how that'd be accomplished.

ditto.

The thing is, most of the rules in SR are there to help the GM rather than the players.  Certainly, you have rules lawyering going on; but the GM is the master storyteller, and some times you need to know how to deal with a variety of situations.  (I haven't read the article).   For me, SR4 is the best edition, having taken a look at SR5, and it's not something I'd run for SR.  SR5 . . .  was something my players rejected after I skimmed it and told them that I didn't see why they (you) needed to change things when so little had been changed.

Okay, segue finished.  Moving back on topic.  What you are all complaining about is quite simple.  It's an RPG.  RPGs are complex, even though streamlining does happen, ostensibly, with every new edition.  I think some of the complaints about the game on this thread is the result of unrealistic expectations.  There are numerous Shadowrun video games available on Good Old Games you can download and play if you want a better experience.  Heck, you can even petition Sy-Fy to create a series for Shadowrun for an easier experience.  Shadowrun is an RPG.  It's literally a game you can play with or without the complexity.  Sometimes you need the rules, and sometimes you can throw them out for what's appropriate.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You mean they DON'T get to sit back and listen to people bitch?  Wow!!

haha no i mean its not just one little corner of the rules.
Rather there are whole swathes/ sections of rules that don't work/ are poorly written so as to make their intent a task of divination.(force 12 required to succeed).

Which is exactly my point.  You're pissing and moaning that 'whole swathes/sections of rules' are basically trying to describe either THIS entire universe of physics, or an entire universe of rapidly-changing logic, structure, and quasi-physics, and that you don't understand the rules that do so.  Has SR5 had issues with people not talking to other people?  Yes.  Editing?  Yes.  Proofreading, even?  Yes.  Annoying people screaming that they suck?  Oh, hell, yes.  But people who love the game still write for it, and try to get shit right, and understandable, and internally consistent, and not-abuseable.  If anything, it's a fucking miracle they manage as much as they do, because unlike some top-end games (such as Pathfinder), SR DOESN'T have an entire full-time staff dedicated to making sure everything meshes perfectly - just a bunch of people who have other shit like a 40-hour-a-week-job going on in their lives, thank you.