[Crimsondude]

I got into a bad argument about this before, but it was also under 3E rules (the SR3 core says that totems are spirits that imbue shamans with power), over the idea of a Christian shaman. I think it's impossible to reconcile because God and/or the Totem would both demand absolute allegiance to themselves over other gods (that is, each other). Others disagreed.

The way I see it, there may be Mentors supporting Occult Studies students at Georgetown, but there are not Catholic shamans who worship their Totems because that's a bridge too far.

[Senko]

You're ... more than a little off the page on that, Senko.  Ibn Eisa was by no means 'benevolent' after his assassination-cum-resurrection-actual-inhabitation; he turned his followers into basically a new and active jihad.

And exactly, Glyph - and as I said, 'Christian theurgy' needn't be the structure that the book has it as.  It's a game; games can be altered.  (We have the technology.)

As for the whole 'how much you can do with X karma' - always remember that you can do that one thing, sure, but there's a lot that needs to be done if you're operating at that sort of level.  While it takes 100 karma to get an attribute from 1 to 6, if you have higher base attributes, you have a higher top-end cost.  To boot, skills cost a lot to push into the higher reaches; a Grade 12 initiate with a Magic of 18 is a huge karma sink, but if you don't gain in your skills as well, you're halfway to throwing it away.

I wasn't the one who said benevolent Shedim originally just that his being possessed opens up all sorts of reliigious holes and what about Lazarus since we're naming names?

Speaking personally I'm less interested in having a 12 top level role than I am in being a whole range of midrange ones i.e. 4-7 computer skills, magic skills, face skills and combat skills. A character who can do multiple different things if they need to than being a target as the BEST of the BEST.

[CitizenJoe]

I want to point out that the "evil" Shedim are the ones w know about.  They are the ones that disrupt society and thus get caught.   If there are "good" Shedim, wouldn't they pretty much go unnoticed through society?

[Sendaz]

I want to point out that the "evil" Shedim are the ones w know about.  They are the ones that disrupt society and thus get caught.   If there are "good" Shedim, wouldn't they pretty much go unnoticed through society?

Which would be sort of alternative take on Peter Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy, though in that situation it was supposedly spirits of previously departed persons.

Which could be an interesting twist if it turned out some of the entities we are calling shedim turned out to be actual spirits of someone's ancestors, but SR wisely steered clear of that particular can o'worms, though it could be done on a homeruled campaign.

[MijRai]

No, we know all Shedim are evil.  If it isn't an inimical to life, consumed by hatred for all things living spirit, it wouldn't be a Shedim at that point.  It is sort of their definition.  Let's no derail this conversation with the morality of Shedim, though.

As far as 'Christian' Shamans go, I could easily see some Totems being converted to Saints or Angels, for lack of a better term.  I even made a aspected magician with the homebrew Guardian Angel Mentor Spirit.

[Reaver]

I got into a bad argument about this before, but it was also under 3E rules (the SR3 core says that totems are spirits that imbue shamans with power), over the idea of a Christian shaman. I think it's impossible to reconcile because God and/or the Totem would both demand absolute allegiance to themselves over other gods (that is, each other). Others disagreed.

The way I see it, there may be Mentors supporting Occult Studies students at Georgetown, but there are not Catholic shamans who worship their Totems because that's a bridge too far.

Under the 3e rules for magic (where Mages and Shamans were effectively opposite sides of the magic coin) I would agree with you.
Under 3e, shamans followed a totem, not a tradition. When shamans (in 3e) casts a spell, a spirit mask of his totem would become super-imposed on his face/body/aura.


But 4e did away with totems and introduced mentors. Mentors that could be taken by anyone; mage or shaman alike. And that has continued into 5e.

Sides not like other things from magic have been cut as well.... <cough> grounding <cough>.

[Glyph]

Mentors can take all kinds of forms, from objects of worship, to personifications of abstract concepts, to even straightforwardly what their name says (mentors).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I wasn't the one who said benevolent Shedim originally just that his being possessed opens up all sorts of reliigious holes and what about Lazarus since we're naming names?

You were, in fact, the one who first said 'benevolent shedim'.  Do a word search - it's post #37.   His return from the dead DID come with a lot of baggage - did he really come back from the dead, was he ever dead in the first place, etc.  And sorry - can't bring legend into it.

As for the 'lots of skills at 4-7' - you can get that pretty early on.  At the level at which a 4000+ karma character is working, though, you need to have a lot of knowledge skills, as well as a few key top-end skills - able to handle anything like a pro, and able to do one thing like a boss, as it were.

[Crimsondude]

I got into a bad argument about this before, but it was also under 3E rules (the SR3 core says that totems are spirits that imbue shamans with power), over the idea of a Christian shaman. I think it's impossible to reconcile because God and/or the Totem would both demand absolute allegiance to themselves over other gods (that is, each other). Others disagreed.

The way I see it, there may be Mentors supporting Occult Studies students at Georgetown, but there are not Catholic shamans who worship their Totems because that's a bridge too far.

Under the 3e rules for magic (where Mages and Shamans were effectively opposite sides of the magic coin) I would agree with you.
Under 3e, shamans followed a totem, not a tradition. When shamans (in 3e) casts a spell, a spirit mask of his totem would become super-imposed on his face/body/aura.


But 4e did away with totems and introduced mentors. Mentors that could be taken by anyone; mage or shaman alike. And that has continued into 5e.

Sides not like other things from magic have been cut as well.... <cough> grounding <cough>.

Thanks. I should've articulated that more clearly.