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Hobbes

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« Reply #180 on: <01-12-16/1128:50> »
"...provide positive feedback..."

You crack me up dude. 

(That is an incredibly vague answer to a specific question, I find it hilarious.  Others may not share my sense of humor.)

Facemage

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« Reply #181 on: <01-12-16/1137:19> »
What do you mean "useless spells and skills"? Can you prove that they're useless? Afaik they are all useless, perhaps you just don't like them for a particular reason? Astral Combat may be in an odd state but I think it is fine to take it anyway and a friend of mine did just that on his new character. Artificing seems fine to me. It may be an unusual choice for a shadowrunner but I think it can be fun and I've used it myself. Any skill or spell is a good choice if the player finds it entertaining.

I think it would be ideal if this person had a form to fill out so we would all know what type of help he is seeking. I think it would help a lot if we knew where he put his karma, as you said. What I would suggest is to tell him that you like his character and give him encouraging feedback. If you think something doesn't add up, tell him, but I would avoid making absolute statements about the value of any particular item, spells, attribute, etc because it is highly subjective.The only skill that strike me as fairly odd is Medicine, I'd probably inquire about that instead of telling him to remove it. The attributes don't really bother me either. I think the best approach is to point out areas where he broke the rules and provide positive feedback, then ask what kind of help he would like.

Of course I can prove that they are useless. Useless means that you never need it or you can easily replace it with a better tool (which you already have). Manabolt is better than astral combat, increase charisma is difficult to use (gives physical drain 5), so it's very seldom usable in the beginning. Later very useful. Without preparations alchemy is useless, fireball and ball lightning are similar, so use only one of them => gives more options to survive in different situations if you replace e.g. a ball lightning spell with a physical mask.

However, the most severe problem with this build is low dodge pool (total 5). And also very low initiative without  the increase reflexes spell (often only a single phase). And because typical enemies in the beginning are archetype characters, for example a street samurai from the rulebook kills him very fast (geek mages first). He should always use increase reflexes and improved invisibility and skulk behind covers (can the new player play like this?). And it's still very difficult, because even with a full defense, improved invisibility and good cover, the full-auto strike can hit him easily. And so the gm should take this into account, and maybe use weaker enemies, which is a problem, because the other players have planned the builds such that they survive against archetype characters. As I said, fit the character to the table and other players.

So, I think that in this case I would still say something like that:
1: Drop str to get higher int or rea
2: Bod 3 is better than bod 4 (more points to rea and int)
3: Ball lightning and fireball overlap, select only one of them
4: Increase charisma is useless, because F8 is difficult and gives physical drain
5: Alchemy is useless without preparations (select some or dump the skill)

I have found that the medicine skill is much better than e.g. astral combat (which is easily replaceable by more better stun bolt), because with it you can accelerate the recovery process, which is useful for example if you want to heal the stun caused by alchemy preps (or ordinary drain). Or it's possible to replace higher bod with low bod, high medicine pool and better armor.  It is useful skill, if your log is high enough. For example with log 9 (increase logic needed) and medicine + specialization you get on average 4 dices (even more with a good medkits) more to your recovery tests => which means that bod 1 with this skill recover on average faster than bod 3. This is one way to survive with bod 1 or bod 2. In this build it is useless (too low dicepool).

Marcus

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« Reply #182 on: <01-12-16/1155:50> »
What do you mean "useless spells and skills"? Can you prove that they're useless? Afaik they are all useless, perhaps you just don't like them for a particular reason? Astral Combat may be in an odd state but I think it is fine to take it anyway and a friend of mine did just that on his new character. Artificing seems fine to me. It may be an unusual choice for a shadowrunner but I think it can be fun and I've used it myself. Any skill or spell is a good choice if the player finds it entertaining.


As Facemage says This character example does have good number of issues.
Shadow are you aware that Alchemy and Spellcasting cannot use the same spells?
So each of those spells needs to be defined as ether an alchemy formula, or as a traditional spell.
Astral Combat relies totally on mental attributes, which means this character would highly ineffective.
Potentially the most single important role of a caster is counterspell overwatch as a caster can protect the whole team with counterspell, that would otherwise only be defended by will.
And of course potentially most critically no heal spell.

Given the limited resources of character creation, deep redundancy particularly in resource intensive build like casters, that can otherwse do so much for a team, will hurt the character effectiveness, and by extension their team.

For all these reasons and more this is a very good example of why a review is very helpful, a knowledge of the system is so critical, and why simply saying oh it's all fine cause that's what he choose is potentially disastrous for that team.

Also none of that has anything to do with power gaming, simply basic systematic understanding of the role.
« Last Edit: <01-12-16/1209:22> by Marcus »
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #183 on: <01-12-16/1158:03> »
What do you mean "useless spells and skills"? Can you prove that they're useless? Afaik they are all useless, perhaps you just don't like them for a particular reason? Astral Combat may be in an odd state but I think it is fine to take it anyway and a friend of mine did just that on his new character. Artificing seems fine to me. It may be an unusual choice for a shadowrunner but I think it can be fun and I've used it myself. Any skill or spell is a good choice if the player finds it entertaining.

I get the counter argument is that these skills can actually be used for certain things and are therefor not useless.

The point being made is they are low value. Astral Combat and Banishing are whole skills that can basically be obviated by taking Stunbolt or Manabolt as a spell choice and maxing your casting pool, unless you invest huge amounts of resources to make them better or set them against super rare edge case enemies. That is not good design.

Artificing provides no real benefit over spending money except if you're going to upgrade your foci because it saves you bonding karma, and if you get reasonable run rewards, Awakened are usually not too worried about money because they use karma for advancement more than money. Diving and Free-Fall are so niche that to make them valuable investments for the vast majority of characters, the game has to be built around them.

This is a different approach to skills from "my char is an ex-marine who did HALO drops for UCAS so he should have free fall." And the mechanics will let down a character like that, because someone who should have Free Fall 6 based on their backstory is likely to get anywhere from little to no return on that investment in actual play in a typical game. Just like the mechanics let down someone trying to represent the huge variety of skills provided by military basic training, in prio, because you wind up with a lot of redundancies where 1-2 will do.

A lot of new players are going to see Firearms and think it's good for representing ex mil or whatever without realizing for a second how it wastes a very limited resource. That's the problem. the player may find it entertaining in chargen and the. See how useless it is in practice and be stuck or feel stupid. Not a good place to be in.

This is the system. Making calls to verisimilitude does not change that this aspect to the system is busted and has been busted for at least 3 editions.


I think it would be ideal if this person had a form to fill out so we would all know what type of help he is seeking. I think it would help a lot if we knew where he put his karma, as you said. What I would suggest is to tell him that you like his character and give him encouraging feedback. If you think something doesn't add up, tell him, but I would avoid making absolute statements about the value of any particular item, spells, attribute, etc because it is highly subjective.The only skill that strike me as fairly odd is Medicine, I'd probably inquire about that instead of telling him to remove it. The attributes don't really bother me either. I think the best approach is to point out areas where he broke the rules and provide positive feedback, then ask what kind of help he would like.
Yeah if something is bad or unlikely to play out as the newbie thinks I don't see a benefit in sugar coating it.
« Last Edit: <01-12-16/1202:48> by Whiskeyjack »
Playability > verisimilitude.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #184 on: <01-12-16/1208:55> »
This is a different approach to skills from "my char is an ex-marine who did HALO drops for UCAS so he should have free fall." And the mechanics will let down a character like that, because someone who should have Free Fall 6 based on their backstory is likely to get anywhere from little to no return on that investment in actual play in a typical game. Just like the mechanics let down someone trying to represent the huge variety of skills provided by military basic training, in prio, because you wind up with a lot of redundancies where 1-2 will do.

This is the point where the 'efficiency' needs to go "bye bye". If the character is ex-military, he should have those skills (and definitely shouldn't have any stats dumped to 1 since there are requirements that must be met to join). If he's missing those skills, then it makes no sense for him to have been military.

Some of the worst offenders here are the 'former special forces' characters. There is absolutely no way for any starting character in any system to accurately reflect the level and breadth of a special forces operative's skills with a LOT of restrictions lifted and a LOT of additional points given.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #185 on: <01-12-16/1216:30> »
I'd recommend someone change their backstory before I recommended taking two full combat skill groups. Story is easier to change than crappy redundant skills are to make valuable.

1s are fine blah blah blah
Playability > verisimilitude.

Marcus

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« Reply #186 on: <01-12-16/1235:23> »
And there in lies the essence of the Stormwind Fallacy.

If you assume that the two (Story and System) must be linked then you have this issue, which can only over come by GM fiat and deep alteration of character generation, which will result in character that would have people howling about how over powered that character is. If you assume that story is a separate but equally important point of character creation, in which story and system do not need to accurately reflect the other simple loosely represent systematic capability, then you can make characters who do.


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FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #187 on: <01-12-16/1247:47> »
I guess I have learned to not be too tied to backstory for characters, as the character generation system is complicated/difficult, and it's tough to know what you can reasonably "fit" until you put it together. I will change my character story to better fit stats before I try to fix stats to try to fit character. Perhaps there are some "cool factor" stuff that I want to be non-negotioable, but then I know I have to take that into account and have an even tighter build everywhere else. Even if I dream up a character I really want to play, if I try to force the character into a system that won't accommodate it, playing that character is going to be less fun than I hoped. If I can build a character more around my sheet, I can use my creativity/imagination to think up rationales/backstories/quirks that I may not have pre-planned but still like, and I will probably have more fun with the character in the game world. I get why some people wouldn't like this though.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #188 on: <01-12-16/1251:54> »
Actually, this where the skill rank explanations become important (at least the Zero Rank explanation). That ex-military character should have training in a plethora of skills since actually having ranks denotes actually being trained. If you absolutely must, for your preference, go for efficiency, at least compromise and have the "less important" (very subjective) ones at 1 rank.

Take the Expeditionary Soldier NPC stat block from the 4th edition War! book. While there are those that decry that book, that stat block is a perfect basis to start with on making an ex-military character. It fits well within character creation guidelines with room to spare (only in Karma Generation for 5th, I'll grant). Now, dropping Heavy Weapons and Gunnery from it wouldn't be too bad an idea since not all soldiers have an MOS supporting those.

Quote from: Expeditionary Soldier

Body 5, Agility 4, Reaction 4(5), Strength 3, Charisma 3, Intuition 4, Logic 2, Willpower 3

Skills: Athletics Skill group 3, Close Combat Skill group 3,
Dodge 3, Etiquette (Military) 2 (+2), Firearms Skill group 4, First
Aid 2, Gunnery 1, Heavy Weapons 3, Infiltration 2, Intimidation
1, Parachuting 2, Perception 1, Survival 2, Throwing Weapons 2

Augmentations: Smartlink (alphaware), Wired Reflexes 1
(alphaware)

Gear: Light military armor, military helmet, Singularity Battle
Buddy Basic, Tacsoft 2, medkit (Rating 6)
Weapons:
Ares Alpha [Assault rifle, DV 6P, AP –1, SA/BF/FA, RC 2, 38
(c); grenade launcher [AP —, SS, RC —, 6(c)]]
Blade Bayonet [Blade, Reach 2, DV (STR/2+2)P, AP –1]
Ares Predator IV [Heavy pistol, DV 5P, AP –1, SA, RC —,
15(c)]
Fragmentation grenade [DV 12P(f ), AP +5, Blast

As I said, it has a good start here and leaves room to incorporate a few minor changes to reflect MOS and the move toward becoming a Runner rather than a Soldier. The armor wouldn't tend to be very good for a Runner and can't be taken without using Restricted Gear, but it's very understandable why he wouldn't have that (though he could go for it and have it in the backstory that he absconded with that item).


And yeah, you should build the sheet and then do other background stuff, but if you start with ex-military when putting that sheet together (even if that's the only bit), then you should have training in the appropriate skills for it.
« Last Edit: <01-12-16/1255:02> by All4BigGuns »
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #189 on: <01-12-16/1257:05> »
I have very little interest in letting NPC antagonist statblocks serve as benchmarks or gatekeepers against which a PC's backstory must be measured to be deemed "acceptable".

"Ex-mil" is such a common backstory that forcing certain mechanical choices to "justify it," choices which hobble a PC in ways that NPCs (who don't need to worry about chargen) are not affected...I can't accept that.
Playability > verisimilitude.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #190 on: <01-12-16/1303:35> »
A character using that as a starting point and modified from there isn't hobbled. He may not be getting the absolute maximum possible pools, but he can still be quite effective.



"Former Special Forces" is common too, but that doesn't change that no character right out of generation is going to be good enough to actually fit that mold.
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Marcus

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« Reply #191 on: <01-12-16/1314:00> »
A character using that as a starting point and modified from there isn't hobbled. He may not be getting the absolute maximum possible pools, but he can still be quite effective.



"Former Special Forces" is common too, but that doesn't change that no character right out of generation is going to be good enough to actually fit that mold.

Prof rating 5+ Oppforce NPC are supposed to represent the 5th ed spec forces. I agree you cannot build a character to those terms, you can make a character that can 1 v 1 one of them so long as that character's given area of focus is an available combat option. But saying you have to build to the NPC standards, is dangerous, it limits your thinking and, it limiting your options, and it's probably killing the uniqueness/personality of your character.

 
« Last Edit: <01-12-16/1315:52> by Marcus »
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FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #192 on: <01-12-16/1326:03> »
oooh... shifting back a bit - No one has used Special Attributes as examples in the skills as effectiveness issue. Magic 1 Summoning 6 vs. Magic 6 Summoning 1. The Magic 1 Character may be the expert summoner but her expertise is severely limited by her magical energies. The Magic 6 Summoning 1 character throws as many dice as the Magic 1 character, but is going to find spirit summoning a lot easier and less painful, even though he has barely started his magical education. Who is "better" at summoning?

celondon

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« Reply #193 on: <01-12-16/1415:57> »
Anyone can be an adventurer -- in this case "Shadowrunner." Those without appropriate skills, aptitudes, gear and preparation, though, won't stay in that profession long, one way or another.

Since you are building characters to be part of a team, you character should be very good at one thing, good at another and be able to handle tertiary duties on a third, if pushed. Your typical Street Sam, I would expect to be very good at their Ranged combat option, Good at CQC and able to handle a emergency First Aid or Get Away Driver tasks. Deckers I expect to be very good at Matrix operations, good at Overwatch and able to fire a gun well enough to provide backup when the fit hits the shan. In that way, a good team is highly skilled and provides some level of redundancy for given tasks.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #194 on: <01-12-16/1515:16> »
My favorite characters I have played are Sam/face (who can easily double as wheelman with all the REA) or face/shaman.

First Aid is really messed up this edition. AFAIK it's the only skill with a results limitation tied to skill rank, on top of applying a Limit to hits, on top of you needing to beat a threshold for any positive effect at all. It drastically devalues the skill, IMO.
Playability > verisimilitude.