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Current status and opinion

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FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #15 on: <02-08-16/0133:53> »
Can't a technomancer with a Transys Avalon or any other high device rating commlink protect more team gear than most deckers (as most starting decks are device rating 2 or 3, and only DR x 3 devices can be slaved)? And still defends with the devices or the master's stats/ratings? A Transys Avalon has a Firewall of 6 and Technomancers are usually pretty solid in the Willpower and Intuition department (master stats used for almost all dice pools in defending against matrix incursions on devices).   Am I missing something?

Forming a PAN only requires the ownership of a commlink or deck. I guess a living persona can't be a master of a PAN, but I don't think that's so terrible. High device rating commlinks with high Firewall are in everyone's grasp, an nearly everyone's budget if they want one. An Intuition Mage can do a solid job taking care of a PAN too.
« Last Edit: <02-08-16/0147:52> by FST_Gemstar »

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #16 on: <02-08-16/1029:52> »
I personally like most of the streamlining of 5th over previous editions. I do wish Catalyst hadn't quite done away with so many of the customization options from previous editions, but those are easily house ruled.

And I think that is the crux of 5th so far; you have to be willing to make table calls and/or house rule things, a lot. Some parts of the rules just don't make much sense, subjectively speaking, but with a little bit of effort the rules are an effective enough framework to build on.

Except for Technomancers, in my opinion; I have no idea what Catalyst was trying to accomplish when they wrote the TM sections, but I just cut them out of the game entirely as Player Characters. I did this in part because I set the game in 2070 so I could use a bunch of the 4th Edition material, but also because I feel the rules would require too much work to be at all feasible.

adzling

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« Reply #17 on: <02-08-16/1121:47> »
The good: I love the setting and the fluff is helpful in building campaigns and giving back story and setting info.

The bad: The rules are horribly written & terribly edited. Some rules just flat out don't work and make no sense. All of this means you will have to spend countless hours on these forums with your fellow forum members trying to divine what the author's intent was and attempting to make sense of what the rules could/ should/ might be.

TL:DR Catalyst has a horrific editing / line management track record with 5e and seems to have fallen and can't get up (no errata after over a year, continuing poor editing and line management as new books are pushed out with little improvement in quality).

> Rigging is totally broken and Rigger 5.0 conveniently ignored many of the problems/ lack of clarity in rigging rules
> The matrix is confusing and poorly thought out and barely works.
> Magic has become so powerful that there is little or no incentive / reason to run a mundane any more when a similarly focussed awakened character can do it better (5e is called "magicrun" but many people).
> Technomancers are useless unless played as a pet class.

I could go on but those are the highlights.


Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #18 on: <02-08-16/1300:32> »
Magic was stronger in 4th.  :P

"The matrix doesn't make sense" doesn't really matter to me. The rules work ok. They're more intuitive and less clunky than 4th. I don't care about verisimilitude near as much as playability. But that's me.
Playability > verisimilitude.

farfromnice

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« Reply #19 on: <02-08-16/1321:21> »
I like Shadowrun a lot

but the 5th edition feel like a drop in quality to me. The majority of the books I bought feel totaly useless, especially DataTrail. The idea of Host are fun, easy to use for a DM ... but feel totaly unlogical, I mean most Host give you an acces for free (like a stuffer shack or police precinct) so a nobody with a cyberdeck could grab in 2 dice throw the pay data they want, this feel really stupid.

In the 4th they try to bring the Hacker able in combat and a good player could easilly do something funny to an ennemi's weapon ... now it feel like bricking is the only option

I don't know, I love Shadowrun but the 5th leave me with an unfunny after taste

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #20 on: <02-08-16/1330:22> »
Bricking is actually the worst option for deckers in combat (if you don't go into combat with existing marks). It's just too slow and unreliable.
Playability > verisimilitude.

farfromnice

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« Reply #21 on: <02-09-16/0812:26> »
I know but the Core Book put it in way that it seems the only logical choice, maybe it's juste me ...

many of you are talking about the drop in usefulness of the Technomancer, I'm at my first game and one of my player is playing a Technomancer. I don'y see where is the problem with them ... maybe because I haven't a Decker player

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #22 on: <02-09-16/1017:33> »
I know but the Core Book put it in way that it seems the only logical choice, maybe it's juste me ...
The book can say whatever it wants. It's wrong. It's not feasible in the action economy and provides very little benefit for the effort.

many of you are talking about the drop in usefulness of the Technomancer, I'm at my first game and one of my player is playing a Technomancer. I don'y see where is the problem with them ... maybe because I haven't a Decker player
Their hacking limits are tied to Attributes, not gear, which makes them pretty MAD. They have to use CFs, not programs, to hack, which can be fairly limiting and not-straightforward. The best thing they can do with the core is be a pet class with sprites - and be effective, I'll say, but that's not everybody's cup of tea.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Mirikon

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« Reply #23 on: <02-09-16/1134:09> »
Can't a technomancer with a Transys Avalon or any other high device rating commlink protect more team gear than most deckers (as most starting decks are device rating 2 or 3, and only DR x 3 devices can be slaved)? And still defends with the devices or the master's stats/ratings? A Transys Avalon has a Firewall of 6 and Technomancers are usually pretty solid in the Willpower and Intuition department (master stats used for almost all dice pools in defending against matrix incursions on devices).   Am I missing something?

Forming a PAN only requires the ownership of a commlink or deck. I guess a living persona can't be a master of a PAN, but I don't think that's so terrible. High device rating commlinks with high Firewall are in everyone's grasp, an nearly everyone's budget if they want one. An Intuition Mage can do a solid job taking care of a PAN too.
Yes, they could grab a commlink and form a PAN that way. But if they're going through the commlink or deck, they're working as a regular matrix user, and are unable to use any of their resonance abilities. In other words, to be an effective hacker, they have to stop being a technomancer and be a decker.

I know but the Core Book put it in way that it seems the only logical choice, maybe it's juste me ...

many of you are talking about the drop in usefulness of the Technomancer, I'm at my first game and one of my player is playing a Technomancer. I don'y see where is the problem with them ... maybe because I haven't a Decker player
The Core Book also goes into a lot of detail about other things that are horrible choices. Sure, if you make a build based on bricking devices, that's a viable option. But otherwise, there's more efficient, elegant, and profitable ways to go about business.

And here's the problems with the TM:

1. They need a high Resonance priority, for obvious reasons, but also require a high Attributes priority, because all their hacking is based off their mental attributes. This gets even worse when you want to be something, anything else than Human or Elf.
2. Because of 1, they usually start with either lower skill levels than hackers, or more hyperspecialized builds to remain somewhat effective.
3. Even so, because of 1, they typically have lower matrix attributes and less flexibility than deckers, because if they want to be good at sleazing their way through systems, they have to base their mental attributes on that, rather than reconfiguring their deck.
4. In the past, TMs could be pretty awesome riggers. There was even a whole Stream (the TM version of magical traditions) based on it. The new edition took that concept and locked it in a cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
5. Complex Forms used to be the Resonance version of programs, because TMs didn't use regular matrix gear, and in fact had to learn separate copies of the same skill if they wanted to hack using commlinks. Now, the CFs are patterned off mage spells, and are of situational use, at best, in the matrix. They can't emulate or spoof programs at all unless they submerge and waste an echo for each program!
6. Because of the resource focus and hyperspecialization forced on them, TMs tend to be rather useless in the physical world, whereas hackers can at least get some ware to help. This is even more damning now that you can't stay in the van and take over the building like you used to.

Basically, combining the changes to the Matrix, returning to the abomination sacred cow quaint priority system instead of the Point Buy system, and core level alterations to how TMs work all make playing a TM an experience akin to waking up in a hardcore BDSM parlor gagged and without knowing any safewords.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #24 on: <02-09-16/1137:56> »
Basically, combining the changes to the Matrix, returning to the abomination sacred cow quaint priority system instead of the Point Buy system, and core level alterations to how TMs work all make playing a TM an experience akin to waking up in a hardcore BDSM parlor gagged and without knowing any safewords.

A bit much, but that there isn't a true Point Buy (sorry, people, but slapping the name on the Karma Generation doesn't cut it) is the single greatest weakness of the entire edition.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #25 on: <02-09-16/1142:24> »
Yeah, I hammed it up a bit. But seriously, it is a sacred cow, like the karma advancement method. Deliberately clunky and inelegant because, dammit, that's how it was back in the days of yore. Which also explains the new matrix, extremely expensive decks and control rigs, and so on.
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Fabe

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« Reply #26 on: <02-09-16/1146:36> »

> Rigging is totally broken and Rigger 5.0 conveniently ignored many of the problems/ lack of clarity in rigging rules

Broken as in too powerful or broken as in not useful?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #27 on: <02-09-16/1149:33> »
Yeah, I hammed it up a bit. But seriously, it is a sacred cow, like the karma advancement method. Deliberately clunky and inelegant because, dammit, that's how it was back in the days of yore. Which also explains the new matrix, extremely expensive decks and control rigs, and so on.

Priority is pretty much a sacred cow, yeah (same with the ludicrous prices returning to implants, decks and rigs this edition).

I would prefer a different cost mechanism on advancement. I'm very partial to the costs that L5R puts on raising attributes and skills (see below).

Attributes: New Value x 4
Skills: New Value
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #28 on: <02-09-16/1204:23> »
(same with the ludicrous prices returning to implants, decks and rigs this edition).

My GM took one look at the 5e costs and was like "okay, use the 4A costs for Availability, nuyen, and Essence where they're more favorable to you, because this is ludicrous." And then slapped a flat cost % off decks for the same reason.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #29 on: <02-09-16/1210:01> »
Basically, combining the changes to the Matrix, returning to the abomination sacred cow quaint priority system instead of the Point Buy system, and core level alterations to how TMs work all make playing a TM an experience akin to waking up in a hardcore BDSM parlor gagged and without knowing any safewords.
You wanna insult the priority system (which I championed and pushed for, very hard, during development not because it was a sacred cow, but because it mostly worked for what we were trying to accomplish), don't be coy and play with strike-outs. It's insulting for all the wrong reason. Just come out and say what's on your mind in a civil tone. Gets you a lot farther with a lot of the people involved, most especially me.

You don't like it (and not everyone does; I get that, and I sympathize), but it accomplished the goal of "Everything has a price" in such a way as to get new people into the game as quickly as possible. I'm at a store at an open table and someone's interested, and they're interested enough to want their own character instead of a pre-gen, then I want to get them actually playing the damn game and not fiddling around with analysis paralysis with the twink point-buy system . (See, I can be a jerk, too.)

Is it as flexible as point buy? Of course not; it wasn't meant to be. And that was one of its selling points: Quickness. Now, you don't have to like it; believe it or not, I'm cool with people not liking my stuff, or the stuff that I pushed for (I didn't actually write chargen, I just complained vocally about certain things). But I do want people to know that I didn't suggest it because it was grognard nostalgia; that was a side effect. If any of the other half-dozen or so efforts we explored while we were trying to get chargen written had worked better at accomplishing our goals, I would have pushed for that instead. They didn't.

I'm sorry you feel like you didn't get a safeword, but I want you to understand WHY we went back to Priorities. Doesn't change anything, I'm sure, but there it is anyway.

A bit much, but that there isn't a true Point Buy (sorry, people, but slapping the name on the Karma Generation doesn't cut it) is the single greatest weakness of the entire edition.
For YOU. You need to start emphasizing things that are your opinion as such, instead of stating them as irrefutable facts. Goes for a lot of people in these threads, not just you, A4BG, but yours are the instances that really stick in my craw for whatever reason.
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