[Xexanoth]

Well with those mods it would fall under Power Armor
For me the key point is always that power armor either makes movement easier or the user stronger. Which the current Ed5. MilSpec armor doesn't(it does the opposite).

My Guideline is:
Normal Armor:  Movement is mostly powered by the wearer, as such heavy armor decreases mobility, especially when worn over long periods.

Power Armor:  Movement is mostly powered by the armor, allowing a person to wear it for a long time . May increases the wearers physical abilities. May be larger than a person. May have mounted weapons. example:  Space Marine Armor, XV22 Stealthsuit, Fallout Power Armor. (and pretty much most Sci-Fi armors)

Mecha Suit: Larger than a person. Replaces physical attributes of wearer. Usually comes with mounted/build-in weapons or tools. example: L.E.O Exosuit, XV8 Crisis Battlesuit .

Mini-Mecha: Larger then Mecha Suit and "You pilot it, instead of wearing it." Goliath(StarCraft), Titanfall Mechs, Mantis(Halo)

[Herr Brackhaus]

Xexanoth
Cool, by that definition milspec armor would definitely be normal armor, but if we incorporated the SR4 modifications it could be made into power armor.

Mecha suits would in my opinion by modifying drones large enough to carry a person, which to my mind is pretty much the Juggernaught and not much else.

Mini-Mecha is as far as I'm concerned not in the scope of Shadowrun, and even if it was it wouldn't be something most Shadowrunners would ever encounter. If they did, I think that would classify as an "oh shit, we've screwed the pooch" moment

[Wakshaani]

With some tweaking those could be use used with the harden armor we have now, like the movement upgrade removing restricted. Or we might get something similar in a later book. Wakshaani, recreate this for 5th! Even if it is only a houserule to be posted here or in the child board of GM Lounge.

I had a rules prototype together for it, in a VERY rough form, but, my space allotment wasn't there. Some of the other stuff I did up didn't make it either. Totally fine and part of the process. The balance isn't that hard, but the game balance is. Cyberware's financial cost can be partially compensated for via Essence, but a suit giving a similar Strength boost doesn't have that downside. To balance it, you kinda need it to be more expensive than a cyber version, or less-good in a different way. If not, then you abandon cyber.

Case in point: Smartgun links. How many people take them in their eyes, now, when glasses, goggles, or freakin' contact lenses do the same job for less money and leave your Essence untouched?

Case #2: How many people take Datajacks when 'trodes are every bit as good but are cheaper and don't cost Essence?

Realisticly, an exo-skeleton built into an armored suit should be less expensive than cyberware. If you made it, say, a thousand per +1 Strength, you crush both Cyberlimbs and Muscle Augmentation in one pass. So, you have to compensate for that in another way, or you jack up the price to, say, 20,000 a point to make it competitive, but then you chew on immersion like crazy. (Wait. Cybereyes cost 100 but glasses are a thousand?!)

It's a tricky thing, but I wouldn't at all be opposed to going back to it at another time. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of Bubblegum and similar things, and like a proper Battletecher from the wayback, I love my big stompy mecha too. Slotting in some reasonable stuff is possible, but it can also shake up the world a bit, so you have to approach that carefully. After all, *I* might think it was cool for all cops to be stomping around in 4 meter tall suits instead of patrol cars, but making it the norm changes a whole Hell of a lot of the setting. As a writer, I'm here as a caretaker of the franchise, not a mighty GodKing. So, you go carefully.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I had a rules prototype together for it, in a VERY rough form, but, my space allotment wasn't there. Some of the other stuff I did up didn't make it either. Totally fine and part of the process. The balance isn't that hard, but the game balance is. Cyberware's financial cost can be partially compensated for via Essence, but a suit giving a similar Strength boost doesn't have that downside. To balance it, you kinda need it to be more expensive than a cyber version, or less-good in a different way. If not, then you abandon cyber.

I don't agree with this at all. If the GM lets you walk around in an armored tank without repercussions, that's not a game balance issue to my mind.

Case in point: Smartgun links. How many people take them in their eyes, now, when glasses, goggles, or freakin' contact lenses do the same job for less money and leave your Essence untouched?

Any dedicated cybersamurai, because of the increased bonus?

Case #2: How many people take Datajacks when 'trodes are every bit as good but are cheaper and don't cost Essence?

Again, any dedicated mundane hacker?

Realisticly, an exo-skeleton built into an armored suit should be less expensive than cyberware. If you made it, say, a thousand per +1 Strength, you crush both Cyberlimbs and Muscle Augmentation in one pass. So, you have to compensate for that in another way, or you jack up the price to, say, 20,000 a point to make it competitive, but then you chew on immersion like crazy. (Wait. Cybereyes cost 100 but glasses are a thousand?!)

Again, not sure I agree with this. Prices for 'ware in this edition is a different argument, though, but I have no issue with a mechanized piece of armor being better than 'ware on the simple grounds that any time you take a stroll around the block in your walking tank you'll have HTR in milspec armor bearing down on you in short order.

And I don't buy the "should be cheaper than 'ware" argument because ware is mass-produced. The number of uses for these kinds of suits are highly limited, and thus simple supply and demand would dictate that getting one would be about as hard and cost as much as a main battle tank, because that's what you'll be when you're wearing one.

It's a tricky thing, but I wouldn't at all be opposed to going back to it at another time. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of Bubblegum and similar things, and like a proper Battletecher from the wayback, I love my big stompy mecha too. Slotting in some reasonable stuff is possible, but it can also shake up the world a bit, so you have to approach that carefully. After all, *I* might think it was cool for all cops to be stomping around in 4 meter tall suits instead of patrol cars, but making it the norm changes a whole Hell of a lot of the setting. As a writer, I'm here as a caretaker of the franchise, not a mighty GodKing. So, you go carefully.

This is a piece of gear that fits in a WAR! book, not a gear book aimed at shadowrunners, because in the spirit of the setting they are more often than not more like lightly armored (by comparison to mech suits, anyway) special forces units, not a squad of MBTs.

So yeah, agree to disagree.

[Xexanoth]

Again, not sure I agree with this. Prices for 'ware in this edition is a different argument, though, but I have no issue with a mechanized piece of armor being better than 'ware on the simple grounds that any time you take a stroll around the block in your walking tank you'll have HTR in milspec armor bearing down on you in short order.

And I don't buy the "should be cheaper than 'ware" argument because ware is mass-produced. The number of uses for these kinds of suits are highly limited, and thus simple supply and demand would dictate that getting one would be about as hard and cost as much as a main battle tank, because that's what you'll be when you're wearing one.

/signed
in my opinion the MilSpec Armor is already to cheap. 25k to get 20 hardened armor is just way to low, it pretty much makes you immune to everything but rockets, apds-snipers or direct combat spells, add 10k more and you're at 23, which reduces damage even further. Considering how expensive most military equipment is, it just doesn't seem right.
The mini Tank Drones in Rigger 5 have less armor than that, and they cost 10 times as much.

As for the ware argument:
The one advantage ware has is that it's hard to take away, is always on and alot of it is "hidden".
Same with the Cybereys vs Glasses, the smartlink or other eye augmentations can't do anything if someone takes your glasses.

[freddieflatline]

The way I see military grade powered armor it is used by special forces primarily in the assault role e.i. ESWAT from Appleseed.  It is either expensive, experimental, or both.  The weapon system is only used in built up areas like cities, mountains, forests, etc... You need to kill a bunch of terrorists in an arcology and do not need to worry about casualties this is your tool.  There probably are specialized versions for underwater or space borne use.  Powered Armor would not be used in open terrain ever, as they cannot carry enough armor or armament.  Also they move at the pace of person not that of a vehicle so they do not have the ability to move into cover quickly.   The advantages exo-suits bring to the fight is that you can load them down with man portables.  Belt fed Panther Assault Cannon no problem.  Need to carry around a TOW and a mini-gun with more than 20 seconds of ammo accept no substitute.  Plus you can stack on the armor and not worry about movement penalties or your soldier getting tired.  There are however drawbacks.  Limited battery life.  Relatively thin armor compared with some full grade military weapons.  Weight and size would also be a downside.  Of course no suit would be over 9 ft. tall.  Most would probably be 7 to 8 feet.  Anything over ten would make the powered armor to big to work in a building.

The reason they would be used instead of drones is that an exo-suit would be hard to shut down with jammers.  If I was a Shadowrunner I would steal or buy a couple of military grade jammers on me at all times just to mess with wireless signals.

[Dinendae]

Case #2: How many people take Datajacks when 'trodes are every bit as good but are cheaper and don't cost Essence?

Again, any dedicated mundane hacker?

You have to have a datajack, if you ever want to go on one of those "deep dives" (or whatever they are being called) to the Foundation (?) of the matrix, or be able to naturally interface with the Matrix (i.e. Technomancers). As I recall, you have to be able to go full immersion into the Matrix in order to actually get into the Foundation(?); it's stated quite clearly in the rules for it. Also trodes don't reduce noise like datajacks do, and you can stack datajack bonuses for increased noise reduction; that's rather important in Chicago where most places you run will have the background count.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

As other posted, I disagree with your sentiments, Wak. Powered Armor/Hard Suits won't replace cyber/bioware. Make so the "armor" has fixed STR and Agility say Str 10 and 8 Agility before up to +4 to each stat for the heavy with the lighter armors having higher agility and lower STR and these do effect limit while in the suit and requires battery packs (fusion cores, whatever) that only last ~4 hours, less during heavy combat. This makes them more of trump cards/SHTF units. After that time it functions as milspec armor (equal to whatever class of armor it is, light, med, heavy) but without the STR and Agility upgrades and movement becomes restricted. Give the armor extra mod capacity for cyber limb and cyber weapons (again only fictional with power) and your set. Heck, make it were the harden quality only functions with power as well if you are worried about balance.

 Also, what runner wants a limited use armor that will call HTR teams using at least Heavy Mil-Spec armor, ADPS or better ammo, heavy sniper weapons, railguns, laser weapons, etc. Or worse yet, they just level the block and "worry" about the collateral damage later.

[MijRai]

Or, better yet; don't give any Agility/Reaction improvements from the armor; you can only go so fast, and if your armor goes too fast you're going to end up with shaken baby syndrome from it going faster than you can and you bounce around the inside.  Strength alone, while powerful, isn't the be-all end-all.  It'll put more power behind melee builds and let ranged builds carry bigger forms of dakka.  I'd also say some Adept powers wouldn't help you inside Powered Armor; Traceless Walk, Penetrating Strike and Hang Time, for example.  Perhaps increase the multiplier on Agility for movement rates as well, but that's a debatable option.

With it being highly Forbidden and stuck with a short battery lifespan (make the batteries either unchangeable in the field or extremely expensive (sort of a 'you have to have a backer in order to have batteries to switch out)), you can balance out the increased armor and Strength.  It being more expensive than 'ware that has been in production for decades makes total sense; the first computer chips were absurdly expensive, but as production was increased, the cost went down. 

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Or, better yet; don't give any Agility/Reaction improvements from the armor; you can only go so fast, and if your armor goes too fast you're going to end up with shaken baby syndrome from it going faster than you can and you bounce around the inside.  Strength alone, while powerful, isn't the be-all end-all.  It'll put more power behind melee builds and let ranged builds carry bigger forms of dakka.  I'd also say some Adept powers wouldn't help you inside Powered Armor; Traceless Walk, Penetrating Strike and Hang Time, for example.  Perhaps increase the multiplier on Agility for movement rates as well, but that's a debatable option.

Some of this I agree with, like Adept's Penetrating Strike and Traceless Walk. Hang time already calls out an armor limit.

But shaken baby syndrome, really? Going by that arguement cyberlimbs would/could do the same to the user, or rip itself off cause the rest of the bone structure cant support the increased abilities!

 You don't think the operator will be strapped in, actually hooked up to the armor, and it not made for the operator (aka custom fit)? I'm pretty sure it would be, also, with long hours in training so you don't kill yourself or others. Again, this stuff for more militarist games, with an almost PQ (same cost at character creation and after, like martial arts) is required to operate the armor without negative effects.

[MijRai]

Cyberlimbs are built into you (reinforced connections and all) with DNI and paid with Essence.  Not to mention the time-frame for acclimatizing yourself to the new limb (they sort of hand-wave that into recovery times). 

Just because you're strapped in doesn't mean you won't give yourself whiplash, and just because you're strapped in doesn't mean you'll be able to benefit from some kind of 'this will improve your Reaction' bonus.  I mean, how would it be doing that with your brain? 

I like your idea of a Positive Quality for training to use Power Armor without penalties, though. 

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

I never said Reaction, so why do you keep bring that Stat up? I said agility and strength, to purely muscle based Stats. So no, the system wont upgrade reaction or initiative in any way. Only the two Stats effected by cyberlimbs, but like limbs, replace the users actual Stats with the suits, customized to that user, like either the powerloader from Aliens or Power Armor, especially like Fallout 4's. The powerloader (aka civilian model) whiplash or other negative effects could/would be and issue. Fallout 4/Iron Man style (Bleeding Edge Military Hardware) it wouldn't be an issue, unless you wish to inflict whiplash on all Full Body Armor users?

Also, on the subject of whiplash unless you want to bring up whiplash with riggers (who have been betten enough over the years) why are we worry about that for this for a functionally full body armor (with perks).

As for the sorta PQ, yeah, nothing this sweat comes without some kind of cost, besides a crap load of Nueyen.

[MijRai]

I bring up Reaction because it is something others can bring up.  It's also something that I would consider a rough cap for certain speed effects (which is also why I consider it a good skill for Pilot).  When it comes to Agility boosts from outside sources (non-'ware/magic), having no natural increase to Reaction says to me that you'll hurt yourself. 

Full Body Armor isn't powered, why would that have any whiplash effect?

Riggers are generally controlling via remote or are jumped into the device/drone/vehicle; its pretty hard to get whiplash (hyperextension injuries) when your body isn't moving.  I'd usually attribute whiplash when driving to crashes and glitches, and were power armor to be around with speed enhancements, over-extension of other joints due to the armor moving faster than you (and your muscles) can react to.  Especially since if you hurt yourself, you generally recoil.  The super-agility then whips itself the other direction, causing more damage. 

I still think raising Agility with Power Armor wouldn't really work.  How does it make you more dexterous?  Actuators over-exaggerating your movements?  That's not going to help.  It's going to be fiendishly difficult to control as well.  It's not like any other form of power armor I've seen actually increases your Agility either; armor and strength, and maybe a somewhat faster speed because your legs are now bigger and powered by those strength boosts (remember the Running skill is Strength based). 

[Xexanoth]

Moving speed however is agility based. Speed improvement is a part of many SciFi power armors, which in shadowrun means more agility, and most power armors require training since they are hard to use as you pointed out.

As for the whole "better reactions", that would fall under the speed improvement in most cases, you're now faster so that you actually can move enough to get out of the way(or do whatever else you needed doing fast enough).

[Herr Brackhaus]

Not to mention that SR4 mil-spec armor had Agility and Strength enhancements, so there is precedent for it.