[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It wasn't Devil Rats that messed them up, but Demon Rats who were leading the Devil Rats. More specifically: Poison from the Demon Rats. Armor doesn't help vs poison in 5e, either.

One, it does, actually. Regular armor can protect against injection vector toxins by preventing penetration, and various armor mods provide varying degrees of protection against contact and inhalation vector toxins.

Not getting hit in the first place is the primary defense in 6e.  Yes, there's a paradigm shift: in 5e you can fairly expect to shrug off attacks entirely.  In 6e you can't fairly expect that.  It's an inherent change to the metagame that in 6e if you get shot, you probably WILL get hurt somewhat.

Two, there's plenty of gear and augmentations that provide soak dice against toxins, so I could very easily move the goalposts from "armor is meaningless because it doesn't provide soak dice" to "protective gear and augments are meaningless because they don't provide soak dice".

But you don't know that there's NO way to augment soak rolls.  You only know that armor doesn't augment soak rolls.

Three, I'm looking at the statblock for Demon Rats right now and I see nothing about a toxin attack. Where did the toxins come from in this scenario?

5e Demon Rats aren't identical to 6e Demon Rats.

If you're not directly familiar with why the toxin messed the SCN actual play party up, let me recap: toxin damage isn't "one and done" in 6e.  You keep taking the damage over and over.  Until you don't.  The "damage over time" effect without a good way to stop it is what wrecked them. If memory serves, they only took like 2 boxes of damage from rat bites.

[Marcus]

It wasn't Devil Rats that messed them up, but Demon Rats who were leading the Devil Rats. More specifically: Poison from the Demon Rats. Armor doesn't help vs poison in 5e, either.

One, it does, actually. Regular armor can protect against injection vector toxins by preventing penetration, and various armor mods provide varying degrees of protection against contact and inhalation vector toxins.

Two, there's plenty of gear and augmentations that provide soak dice against toxins, so I could very easily move the goalposts from "armor is meaningless because it doesn't provide soak dice" to "protective gear and augments are meaningless because they don't provide soak dice".

Three, I'm looking at the statblock for Demon Rats right now and I see nothing about a toxin attack. Where did the toxins come from in this scenario?

Ouch lol.

[Ghost Rigger]

Not getting hit in the first place is the primary defense in 6e.  Yes, there's a paradigm shift: in 5e you can fairly expect to shrug off attacks entirely.  In 6e you can't fairly expect that.  It's an inherent change to the metagame that in 6e if you get shot, you probably WILL get hurt somewhat.

You were still wrong about armor protecting against toxins. Besides that, not getting hit in the first place is the primary defense in every edition of Shadowrun. It's just that getting hit is inevitable for all but the most Black Trenchcoat of players, so you need your armor to provide soak dice for when you do get hit.

But you don't know that there's NO way to augment soak rolls.  You only know that armor doesn't augment soak rolls.

Pattern recognition says either there won't be any way to get more soak dice, or they'll be very costly to obtain. What's more, soak dice against toxins and specific element types are going to be even more expensive, if they're even a thing. Specialized protection is more difficult to obtain than normal protection; if soak dice against bullets and knives are no longer a dime a dozen, then what kind of price can we expect to pay for soak dice against toxins, or against specific elemental damage?

If you're not directly familiar with why the toxin messed the SCN actual play party up, let me recap: toxin damage isn't "one and done" in 6e.  You keep taking the damage over and over.  Until you don't.  The "damage over time" effect without a good way to stop it is what wrecked them. If memory serves, they only took like 2 boxes of damage from rat bites.

So getting hit with an injection vector toxin is worse than it was before, and now there's no way to protect yourself from an injection vector toxin except "just don't get hit lol". Well, now it makes sense that Strength no longer contributes to melee damage, because no one is going to use a melee weapon other than syringes full of Narcoject ever again.

[Marcus]

If you're not directly familiar with why the toxin messed the SCN actual play party up, let me recap: toin damage isn't "one and done" in 6e.  You keep taking the damage over and over.  Until you don't.  The "damage over time" effect without a good way to stop it is what wrecked them. If memory serves, they only took like 2 boxes of damage from rat bites.

So in addition to not being able to soak much as all, Toxins have become way stronger, without the ability to negate the effect easily? Good to know. lol

[Marcus]

That just blows me away DoT effects in a game with So few boxes in the CM, and seriously reduced action economy. Did they change the how CM is calculated or anything? 

[Shinobi Killfist]

While not getting hit has always been the primary defense I’m not sure mechanically we will need armor to soak. As in the math could be correctly scaled to work without it. That being said, armor likely won’t feel like armor. This is similar to the strength/melee issue. The math might be fine to make the sword be balanced and viable or whatever. It just makes no effing sense so that logical dissonance damages the feel of the game.

It feels like all their eggs are in the edge basket. Trust us edge makes armor work, it makes melee/str work.

[Marcus]

It feels like all their eggs are in the edge basket. Trust us edge makes armor work, it makes melee/str work.

I think you're on to something there.

[Hobbes]

...from what I have seen in the live play sessions, the lack of armour adding into soak does make a big difference.  In session #2 the entire team was almost taken out by devil rats.  I have never seen a team of runners decimated by devil rats in any edition.

Devil rats are quite lethal when employed properly.  If you set 'em up like a D&D giant rat fight, phish, splat, splat, splat.  But when they're in the walls, guiding swarms of rats, astral ripping your magic support to hell and gone... yeah, then they're scary. 

[kyoto kid]

...scary for low level characters in D&D.

I didn't catch all of the second session.

So do the same rules for multiple grunts attacking together apply for multiple critters?  If so that really pushes the threat level up should a team encounter something like a pack of Hellhounds or several Barghasts. I don't mind a challenge, but the more I have seen of how the rules work, the more I am beginning to feel the system has become severely weighted against the PCs. Not quite as bad as Paranoia or Call of Cthulhu, but still.

Only Body counts for soak, ties go to the attacker now instead of the defender, No protection against injection vector toxins (except not getting hit), melee weapons seem worthless compared to unarmed fighting, and enemies effectively have the "swarm" action.   I'm basically surprised none of the characters in the live play test haven't ended up KIA yet (the team's Decker almost did this past week and the Weapon Specialist/Sammy sounded like he was barely hanging together by a thread or two).

[Cabral]

It feels like all their eggs are in the edge basket. Trust us edge makes armor work, it makes melee/str work.

I think you're on to something there.

When is 7e coming out?

Can I just skip the armor just adds to AC -- sorry, defense rating-- edition?

Seriously, with the armor revamp and sustained spells becomes set durations, this is going to be SR's D&D 4e.

[Michael Chandra]

Seriously, with the armor revamp and sustained spells becomes set durations, this is going to be SR's D&D 4e.

The misinformation to the public is pretty strong. Like you have these folks with the quick start rules or box set or whatever playing live streams that say one thing, then you have these (authors I presume? i.e Banshee) saying something else. The drain example.

I think we all appreciate intel on the changes in the new edition but can we at least get it right before we call it out?

yes I wrote parts of the book and was on the rules development team from the beginning as well and obviously have a copy of the "final" print copy in my possession. However I have not seen the QSR and would agree there seems to be some sizable differences between it and the CRB on a few things. Spellcasting seems to be the biggest one since we did not change drain or sustained spells either one but it sounds like the QSR says otherwise.

[Cabral]

yes I wrote parts of the book and was on the rules development team from the beginning as well and obviously have a copy of the "final" print copy in my possession. However I have not seen the QSR and would agree there seems to be some sizable differences between it and the CRB on a few things. Spellcasting seems to be the biggest one since we did not change drain or sustained spells either one but it sounds like the QSR says otherwise.

I forgot that post. Thank you.

I am still concerned.
Puts on tinfoil hat. Hides under Gurth's stairs.

[tenchi2a]

So I've been watching the Shadowcasters play-thru of shadowrun sixth world and I have to say I am not impressed with the game so far.
Some of my issues include:
1. The lack of armor as damage reduction seem to make even the simplest encounter deadly.
Add to this that the only real successes the team has had is when using things like invisibility to take the other-side by surprise.
2. Healing using edge as a base is going to make the lack of armor as a DR even worse, since most a parties heavy hitters and front-line combatants are going to quickly be put out of action if all they can count on is their body for soak. As in previous edition depended on their armor to get them through.
I see most groups have ridiculous amounts of downtime after most missions.
3. The edge system in general seems to have been setup as this "super the game depends on it mechanic" and I don't see it living up to this faith the designers have put in it.
 a. It seem to be very hard to get more edge outside of direct combat (ex.The mages inability to generate much edge).
 b. If there is some advantages that are taking the place of armors DR I'm not seeing them.
 c. From what I can see edge gain is not as fast as they have seemed to imply.
 d. It seems like they are going with an " Edge can be substantiated for any mechanic" design, and I don't see this system as able to effectively replace most game mechanic
     they think it will.
4. And don get me started on the "Wild Die"
 a. As a GM I have seen what most of my players rolls are and on average the majority of hits are 5s.
 b. So for the off chance of getting a few more hits they are going to run the risk of losing most of their hits in a roll.
I think "Jinn" summed it up well when he said "If I had know the mechanic before I rolled it I never would have used it".
So it is a mechanic that knowing my players and assuing that most players feel the same, is never going to get much if any use as players are going to avoid it like the plague.

All-in-all, I have to say so far I'm nowhere near impressed with the system and will most likely stay with 5th at this point.

[Michael Chandra]

Why are they using edge to heal, instead of normal healing methods such as first aid and the heal spell? How come their defense pools are so bad that they get hit all the time? How come they don't aim for getting a significant amount of edge per combat round? Where's their armor, diving for cover, forcing negative circumstances onto their enemies through smoke grenades and such?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why are they using edge to heal, instead of normal healing methods such as first aid and the heal spell? How come their defense pools are so bad that they get hit all the time? How come they don't aim for getting a significant amount of edge per combat round? Where's their armor, diving for cover, forcing negative circumstances onto their enemies through smoke grenades and such?

For most of that, because that’s how the game works. A crap defense pool is normal. There are 8  stats you have to spread points among. You don’t get that many points. So yeah 5-8 dice is pretty damn normal. With dodge etc maybe you bump to 10-12. It’s not top line opposition needed to hit that as skills are easier to start at 6. Don’t most negative circumstances only get you a edge, are you willing to use your one major for that.

Edge for heal I have no idea on I have not see the rules. But hit often. 4 agility+6 firearms=10 dice. To equal that without active dodges you need 5 in both intuition and reaction. That’s 8 of your maybe 16 points for 2 of your 8 stats.