[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

yeah Stainless im not familiar with rocket tag as function of combat in 5e.

It's never worked that way for our table and we play vanilla 5e combat rules.

Combats involve plenty of back and forth and most damage is stun.

It seems like you're experience of 5e combat is very different from ours, not sure why.

Maybe some context would help.
I heard the term Rocket Tag originally in Pathfinder Organized Play, where it obviously doesn't literally mean combat with Rocket Launchers. It means combats that are decided by who gets the first massive hit in, which is usually whoever is going first.

For a Shadowrun example: Throwing a F12 Lightning Ball on your first of 4 initiative passes is Rocket Tag. If the fight isn't already over right there, no way will 3 more attacks fail to finish the fight off before the combat round ends.  The local meta where I play, that's a chargen character not a prime runner.

Another aspect of Rocket Tag in a shadowrun context (specifically 5e) is yes armor is so effective, usually all you take is at worst a little stun.  Until you get hit by something with enough DV and/or AP that it's physical damage.  Once you hit that critical mass of DV to soak pool ratio, it's death.  The "rocket" in "rocket tag".  There's in effect no middle ground between chunky salsa and a little bit of stun (once you get into minmaxing, at least).

[adzling]

Yeah I understand what you're saying I'm just saying we don't see that.

We often end up with characters injured in various degrees.

It may be because we don't permit reagents to overcast f12 lightning bolts but that doesn't seem particularly relevant here as there are plenty of weapons that can dish out the hurt that aren't lightning bolts.

[Ghost Rigger]

Well, there ya go.

37 pages into a discussion about 6e y'all learned a rule from 5e.

But that's the problem. No one was aware the rule even existed until you brought it up as a counterpoint. How is the optional rule going to save anyone from garbage core rules when no one knows it exists?

For a Shadowrun example: Throwing a F12 Lightning Ball on your first of 4 initiative passes is Rocket Tag.  The local meta where I play, that's a chargen character not a prime runner.

Your meta's fucked mate, no two ways about it. There's no reason to make the game worse for 99% of the players just to correct stuff that only happens at the bellends.

Another aspect of Rocket Tag in a shadowrun context (specifically 5e) is yes armor is so effective, usually all you take is at worst a little stun.  Until you get hit by something with enough DV and/or AP that it's physical damage.  Once you hit that critical mass of DV to soak pool ratio, it's death.  The "rocket" in "rocket tag".  There's in effect no middle ground between chunky salsa and a little bit of stun.

One, I see no problem with this. Two, yes there is a middle ground, it's when the damage is lethal but not enough to instagib you. This usually occurs when the DV is relatively low but the AP is relatively high, like an SMG loaded with APDS.

[Michael Chandra]

For a Shadowrun example: Throwing a F12 Lightning Ball on your first of 4 initiative passes is Rocket Tag.

5. In Missions. Before there was the run-away-from-aoe action. And he spellshaped it to be 18m-radius. Wiped out the entire group of enemies in Lost Islands Found final battle.

He did it often. The one time he kept standing after throwing that kind of attack, the next pass he threw another. Again, using Spellshaping to make sure he'd never score more than his Magic in hits.

[Hobbes]

yeah Stainless im not familiar with rocket tag as function of combat in 5e.

It's never worked that way for our table and we play vanilla 5e combat rules.

Combats involve plenty of back and forth and most damage is stun.

It seems like you're experience of 5e combat is very different from ours, not sure why.

Maybe some context would help.
I heard the term Rocket Tag originally in Pathfinder Organized Play, where it obviously doesn't literally mean combat with Rocket Launchers. It means combats that are decided by who gets the first massive hit in, which is usually whoever is going first.

For a Shadowrun example: Throwing a F12 Lightning Ball on your first of 4 initiative passes is Rocket Tag. If the fight isn't already over right there, no way will 3 more attacks fail to finish the fight off before the combat round ends.  The local meta where I play, that's a chargen character not a prime runner.

Another aspect of Rocket Tag in a shadowrun context (specifically 5e) is yes armor is so effective, usually all you take is at worst a little stun.  Until you get hit by something with enough DV and/or AP that it's physical damage.  Once you hit that critical mass of DV to soak pool ratio, it's death.  The "rocket" in "rocket tag".  There's in effect no middle ground between chunky salsa and a little bit of stun (once you get into minmaxing, at least).

Can confirm Rocket Tag is the local Meta.  Fights last one turn, except for the totally crazy ones.  Most of the local Cons are similar.  Even in Neo-Tokyo, because ending the fight in one turn gives you more time to run away from the Police response. 

I suspect 6E will be Rocket Punch Tag for the more combat optimized tables, at least from what I've seen of 6E so far. 

[adzling]

i've played missions runs, so i don't know how crappy the NPC opponents are or how OP the PCs are.

Having said that our group is playing runners with 250+ karma so they are quite a bit more powerful than most missions PCs i would imagine.

[Moonshine Fox]

For a Shadowrun example: Throwing a F12 Lightning Ball on your first of 4 initiative passes is Rocket Tag.  The local meta where I play, that's a chargen character not a prime runner.

Your meta's fucked mate, no two ways about it. There's no reason to make the game worse for 99% of the players just to correct stuff that only happens at the bellends.

You make a bold assumption that the system for 6th (which I feel I must remind people constantly we haven't seen yet, let alone played) is going to be worse for almost all gamers. What's already been described will be able to draw my own group into it finally, as two of my players aren't good number crunchers and the level of math-run in 5th turned them off to the game.

It can encourage and enhance all types of play, pink mohawk, black trench-coat, and mirror shades alike. Your pink mohawk players can wear the crazy outfits so often depicted in cyberpunk art without worry. Your black trench-coat players can focus more on blending in situationally and could very well be more encouraged to use a lot of cover, just like real combat. And finally your mirror shades players have their usual mix of the other two drawing from benefits of both.

As I noted in response to Stainless's comment re: "hooray we can now wear normal clothes and not care so that's awesome for black trenchcoat" (i'm paraphrasing) that's a bogus argument as you can do that with armored suits, clothes, vests, gowns and still retain the relationship to reality.

By that logic I can now also invent entire immersive lines of clothing designs from armored suits, clothes, vests, gowns, all without needing to create new fully formed and balanced rules for each of them, or remaking a 15th version of the same stat line.

Style of play we kind of need definitions for. I think people are using the terms differently.

I’d say 6e seems more divorced from reality. Not necessarily narrative but making no efforts to fit with simulation at all. No idea what that means style of play wise.

As for mow then down rules, the GM will fix it doesn’t actually fix core design issues. It should work on its own with the GM nudging around the edges for unusual play.

If you want an actual gun battle simulator, a pro tip. A lot of people who get shot die from blood loss due to arterial bleeding in their extremities. Most of the rest die from shock. Despite what Hollywood tells you, single gun shots rarely kill people instantly. Also remember that such easy one-shot-kills also apply to your character as well.

As for sounds from people who actually played: We also got a lot of positive reactions from people who tried out the Box. So all in all I'd say it's too early to judge or let things scare us.

This is baseless afaik.
I have heard no one says it's better for black trench supported by any reasonable argument.
Do you have one Michael?

So what? Is that the only measure of how good peoples play of the game is? Black Trench Coat or GTFO? People who've posted that they've played it seem to have overall enjoyed it. Period. That's it. That's not baseless, it's just not what you're wanting to hear. If you want it to fit your particular table, wait till the full rules come out and modify what rules you want to get your gritty realistic cybernoir game. Meanwhile I'll take those same rules and tweak what I want for my tables more light-hearted silly-but-sometimes-serious game. This isn't a zero-sum finish line.


The game rules becoming more simple and abstract is neither good nor bad, same with a more simulater game. It simply appeals to a different crowd, and the overall gaming crowd right now wants a more simple and abstract rule set that they can add to as needed for their particular groups style. It even makes sense when you think that they are often coming from video games with weird arbitrary rules of what you can and can't do and try to simulate things.

I recommend listening to Bob Dylan's song The Times They Are a-Changin. Things change whether we like it or not, and in the case of Shadowrun, may be going back to their roots. These were the very first archatypes after all (https://everythingexplodes.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/the-ridiculous-archetypes-of-shadowrun/). Realistic and gritty they are not.

PS: I want that street mages hat.

[adzling]

to be clear (do i need to be MORE clear?) I am NOT saying black trench or GTFO. Both playstyles are fun, for sure. And one is not "wrong". It just comes down to personal preference.

Shadowrun used to give you the ability to exercise that preference.

I am saying, repeatedly, 6e turns shadowrun into MiB / Pink Mohawk style without room for Black Trench.
Black Trench is just not possible with 6e due to it's highly abstracted mechanics that are divorced from reality.

I hope that's clearer for ya.

[Shinobi Killfist]

And to further clear it up no one asking for a perfect gun battle simulator. But you know little things like hard shots being harder to make than easy shots is kind of the low level reality requests we are making.

[Ghost Rigger]

You make a bold assumption that the system for 6th (which I feel I must remind people constantly we haven't seen yet, let alone played) is going to be worse for almost all gamers. What's already been described will be able to draw my own group into it finally, as two of my players aren't good number crunchers and the level of math-run in 5th turned them off to the game.

"Soak pools are reduced to almost nothing, armor does nothing, strength doesn't increase melee damage, guns are piss weak, modifiers are gone, the action economy is borked, everything runs on a newfangled edge mechanic, but it was all worth it because now the normies and casuals will like it!"

Do you want gatekeeping to happen? Because this is how you get gatekeeping. The hobby changes in a way the core playerbase doesn't like, and at the same time new players, many of whom would have never have touched the hobby had these changes not been made, start coming in. The core playerbase notices these two things happening at the same time and comes to associate new players with their hobby changing in ways they don't like. New players are perceived as a threat to the hobby. The core playerbase adopts elitist attitudes, and then everyone is worse off.

[adzling]

that's a scarily good psychological profile of the gaming community there ghostrigger.

[FastJack]

You make a bold assumption that the system for 6th (which I feel I must remind people constantly we haven't seen yet, let alone played) is going to be worse for almost all gamers. What's already been described will be able to draw my own group into it finally, as two of my players aren't good number crunchers and the level of math-run in 5th turned them off to the game.

"Soak pools are reduced to almost nothing, armor does nothing, strength doesn't increase melee damage, guns are piss weak, modifiers are gone, the action economy is borked, everything runs on a newfangled edge mechanic, but it was all worth it because now the normies and casuals will like it!"

Do you want gatekeeping to happen? Because this is how you get gatekeeping. The hobby changes in a way the core playerbase doesn't like, and at the same time new players, many of whom would have never have touched the hobby had these changes not been made, start coming in. The core playerbase notices these two things happening at the same time and comes to associate new players with their hobby changing in ways they don't like. New players are perceived as a threat to the hobby. The core playerbase adopts elitist attitudes, and then everyone is worse off.

I've heard gatekeeping being threatened in other games. When D&D moved from 1st to 2nd edition. From 2nd to 3rd. From 3rd to 4th. From 4th to 5th. When White Wolf stopped producing Vampire: the Masquerade. When BattleTech had the problems with the Unseen, and again with Dark Age. When FASA closed it doors, and WizKids tried the Shadowrun Collectible Action Figures. Even when D&D announced 4th Edition and Paizo countered with Pathfinder. Nobody was worse off in the end.

Also, what do you consider the core playerbase? Is just people that played 5th Edition? Is it players that have played every edition since 1st? Only the players that have tried every edition? Players that played both Harlequin and Harlequin's Back? All the people that have read all the original Roc novels? Or people that have read the Kellan Colt trilogy? Maybe those that have played in all the seasons of Shadowrun Missions? Forum members? Non-forum members? Only forum members with more than 4 Nuyen under their names?

You start talking about a core playerbase, you get into dangerous waters where you become elitist and think that you know what's best for the game, no matter what anyone else likes.

[adzling]

all good points fastjack.

a fan survey before the start of 6e development might have been useful!

[FastJack]

all good points fastjack.

a fan survey before the start of 6e development might have been useful!

On that, I totally agree. There is a current survey (Looking for some answers...). Better late than never.

[adzling]

books already in print, not much use now unfortunately.

I will say I think Banshee's a good guy and his heart is in the right place.
(I'm trying to give kudos whenever I can as the freelancers tend to be the ones eating all the shit for Catalyst's mis-steps and that's not fair imho).