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Glyph

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« Reply #60 on: <02-19-12/1543:21> »
Different characters tend to have different thresholds of being "ruined".  It mostly depends on character concept.  In other words, an adept who gets burned out might be salvageable if he gets a lot of cyberware, but the player doesn't want to play a street samurai - he wants to play an adept.

Obviously, for a grittier game, it is better to make characters that you are not personally very attached to, and to make them with adaptable outlooks - lose an arm?  Get a replacement one and keep on trucking.  It's a matter of play style - it is best if everyone knows what kind of game they are getting into beforehand, so they will know what qualities and character types to avoid.

Lethe

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« Reply #61 on: <02-19-12/1600:22> »
You can't have a mage just wandering about in the jail cell, they have magic.  And since that can't be taken away, they need a way to prevent the use.  Popping eyeballs is pretty damn effective.  But what is even more effective is a bullet in the brain pan.
Popping the eyes out will actually do nothing about ones magic ability. You don't need your eyes for astral perception and can still aim your spells using that. You will disable his mundane abilities even more, since he gets -2 on all actions in the physical world. His magic won't be affected by that.

Crash_00

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« Reply #62 on: <02-19-12/1610:43> »
And the bullet to the brain pan, point blank, no chance to dodge doesn't raise issues. I guess I find it odd that a player would rather lose all his karma and make a new character because his old is "ruined" when it would take (Assuming they were already at 10 Magic and Initiate Grade 4) 55 karma to get back where they were.

There are some mage stopping containment systems, or at least mage lessening, but I don't really see them being standard issue to every criminal group in the city. The main issue is that dead mages don't talk (or provide valuable intel on the team you're after via spyware using the example that was focused on), and sometimes that's a needed attribute. I guess you could slap a speaker box in the corpse, but it would never say the right things.

Quote
If not, I would use "stop Technomancer from becoming a ghoul" as a plot point to drive an adventure.

Example: [insert magician NPC who can get enough Cure Disease together to save the technomancer from ghouling] will do it, if the PCs do him a favor. And he won't do it until the favor is complete - so now they have a tense run that has to be finished in under a day. Or replace magician with someone who can get them emergency [whatever the disease blocking ones are] Nanites. Or something like that, depending on what would best suit the campaign, what NPCs already existed, etc.
I don't really see myself as a killer GM. I actually consider myself to be nicer (meaning more lenient) than most of the GMs I've played under. That said, I can't help but feel that at this point you might as well just rewind the cosmic VCR and say the ghoul missed. I can see houseruling the ghoul strain down if you play a less grit more power game, but if handled the described way I would feel like there was no real consequence to getting bit and failing the test if a NPC will just step in and save the day.

By raw O-Cells don't actually work on the ghoul virus. All the HMHVV have had no anti-virals developed that work for them. They're also labeled as Retroviral instead of Viral specifically to make them not fall under Viral based aids.

I won't kill a player for a single bad roll, but I have no problem doing anything less. I will kill players for most other things though (lack of legwork, refusal to flee, arrogant overconfidence, etc.), but again, I'm upfront with it.

As for the surviving ghoul victims, a combination of high force Increased Body and Cure Disease wound up with them rolling around 9 dice for body most of the time and another 14 (maxed out) from the Cure Disease. Using Ritual spell Casting, Healing Spellcasting Foci, Bound Spirits, and the occasional edge (usually on the Cure Disease), they were usually able to get full-effect spells cast on them. Of course their bill at the end was the stuff of nightmares (is that a commcode?). 23 dice average to about 7 hits. Using edge to reroll will average another 5 usually.

Glyph

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« Reply #63 on: <02-19-12/2023:59> »
I think my biggest problem with the ghoul infection rules is not that they are too dark or gritty, but that they don't fit the fluff of the game.  If ghouls are that incredibly infectious, then things like a ghoul rights movement or an entire country of ghouls don't make sense - they would be a living plague, to be shot on sight, not misunderstood victims of discrimination.

Critias

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« Reply #64 on: <02-19-12/2048:38> »
Which isn't a completely alien mindset to quite a few people (in-universe and IRL), anyways.

Crash_00

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« Reply #65 on: <02-19-12/2240:55> »
A lot of places still have standing ghoul bounties. I think what doesn't hash out is that now ghouls transform without the old WIll roll to keep their wits. In SR3 you had to roll willpower (TN 6) and get 3 successes to keep your full personality, 2 left you with a charisma penalty, 1 left you with an Intel and Charisma penalty, and 0 left you pretty much a feral ghoul (penalties were on top of normal ghoul penalties of course). There are a lot of people out there that will shoot you for getting bitten, just to be safe.

Thing is, the ghoul's that don't lose their minds don't want to be persecuted. They don't see it as their fault that they're monsters (and sometimes they're right), they want to just live their lives. Get enough of them together with money (what runs the world) and they'll have some limited sway.

JustADude

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« Reply #66 on: <02-19-12/2250:22> »
If a Technomancer gets bitten by a ghoul and tanks his resistance tests, do you infect him?

Now, as a GM, I'd probably infect him, yeah, but if he wants to keep the character I'd also allow him to get a big Karma "refund" to cover a good portion of the stuff he lost, give him the option of flipping from TM to a magical "equivalent", and let him convert (at a loss) his Resonance/Submersion ratings into Magic/Initiation and his Echos into the equivalent Metamagic.

The hand-wave would be HMMVV being a "smart" enough virus to adapt the Technomancer's abilities, rather than burning them off and starting new one's from scratch.
« Last Edit: <02-19-12/2251:53> by JustADude »
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CanRay

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« Reply #67 on: <02-19-12/2318:31> »
"Oh Ghost, the voices...  The voices in my head have stopped.  They aren't there any longer!  Oh SPIRITS I'M SANE!!!"
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Lethe

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« Reply #68 on: <02-20-12/0139:36> »
And the bullet to the brain pan, point blank, no chance to dodge doesn't raise issues
Of course not, its quite effective.

Mercer

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« Reply #69 on: <02-20-12/0148:19> »
I think my biggest problem with the ghoul infection rules is not that they are too dark or gritty, but that they don't fit the fluff of the game. 

I agree.  I think its a classic case of trying to challenge the runners mechanically.  If ghoul infection was something the average person had a decent chance of resisting it would be a pointless mechanic in the game because only one character out of 50 (there's always a low BOD mage in there somewhere) would have a snowball's chance of failing it.  You make it so  the average runner has to sweat it a little and the way that works on the average citizen you'd think the world of 2072 would like Dawn of the Dead with a fewer larger zombies mixed in. 

I kind of liked it back in earlier editions.  In SR1, ghouls weren't infectious.  In SR2, ghouls were discovered to be infectious but it was so rare that no one really understood the process.  (I don't remember the name of the module this revelation was in, but it was a neat moment.  It wasn't a big, earth-shattering thing, but it had a nice paranoid vibe to it somewhere between "The Andromeda Strain" and a zombie flick.)  In SR3, rules were finally printed and we realized that the way the math worked out we should have already invented a language called "ghoul" and started speaking it.

I don't have a problem with super-virulent ghoul strains to scare the bejeezus out of the players.  If anything, I'm for it.  But call it the super-duper Krieger-strain and say it occurs in less than 1% of ghouls.  You can scare the runners as much as you need to (and it would still be enough to set off anti-ghoul riots and witch hunts, no offense to witches), and you wouldn't have such a wide gulf between the rules and the fluff.

Sichr

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« Reply #70 on: <02-20-12/0509:21> »
I think my biggest problem with the ghoul infection rules is not that they are too dark or gritty, but that they don't fit the fluff of the game.  If ghouls are that incredibly infectious, then things like a ghoul rights movement or an entire country of ghouls don't make sense - they would be a living plague, to be shot on sight, not misunderstood victims of discrimination.

Well, I really dont know what you are talking about, since Ive been searching and searching again rules that told me what hapúpens to the character that is ghoul-bitten. And I found nothing. Ghouls in SRA corebook doesnt even have Infection power listed, or some kind of natural weapon: Dissease, nothing at all. In companions, you find out how things work, and you also find out that only: Goblins, Banshee, Dzoo-noo-qua, Nosferatu, Vampire and Wendigo, all HMHVV I strain...and this may be also modified by Infertile infected quality.
So I actually dont know how one can become ghoul from ghoul bite, only if houseruled or modified by some eratta. Because of this, I can simply rule that only maybe 1 out of 20 ghouls is able to spread the infection...

Irian

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« Reply #71 on: <02-20-12/0519:13> »
Runners Companion has the rules for the different HMHVV strains.
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Sichr

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« Reply #72 on: <02-20-12/0545:51> »
Yes. That is, there is said sometjhing like
Quote from: SRC, p.83
...HMHVV III is responsible for the creation of ghouls, and
is typically spread by unprotected contact with those creatures or
their bodily fluids...

But this doesnt say if it hapúpens in 100% cases? At least it would be good to have statistics how spread is "Infertile" quality amongst Infected...since if the ratio is high, it would be understandable that Infected are able to get their place on the sunlight (aehm :) ) but if every single one is highly infectious, this wont be about single bounties, but about kill squads. and history teches us, that genocide of such kind is not only possible, but also highly probable...

Irian

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« Reply #73 on: <02-20-12/0558:29> »
There are values given... Penetration, Speed, Power... everything you need to decide how probable the ghulification is...? But yes, the rules there would more likely support an all-out war with ghuls than just bounties :-)
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #74 on: <02-20-12/1212:50> »
Quote from: SRC, p.83
...HMHVV III is responsible for the creation of ghouls, and
is typically spread by unprotected contact with those creatures or
their bodily fluids...

Emphasis mine.

Even worse...seeing this portion even further confirms that I will never pit any players against ghouls. This suggests that mere touch will infect...
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

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