[JustADude]

So the mob boss is an idiot who doesn't know about magic and essence (or is it common knowledge in the third world?), or doesn't care about the mage not wanting cyberware, as in, "I just decided to pay you guys with this stuff, if you don't like it, too bad"

You're really breaking my belief threshold if you've got the Mafia with deltaware access.

Agreed on both counts, there.

Even with some massively important job for a company like Evo who should have Deltaware clinics, then the team themselves would have to be bloody stupid not to negotiate payment that includes other options for their non-augmented members.

[Crash_00]

Seriously? Also. Why wouldn't the mage just sell it to someone else instead?

Can't sell deltaware for one, and second, why would the boss care if one of the group doesn't want an extra reward he tossed in, it's less cost for him if they decline. The example didn't say as payment, it said as a reward, as in a bonus. There is a downside to staying pure sometimes.

You're really breaking my belief threshold if you've got the Mafia with deltaware access.

If you take a look in Ghost Cartels, almost all of the big cartel players are completely decked out in Deltaware. Even the second tier are decked out in Betaware. Add in some of the flavor from Vice talking about the Mob's elite hit squads, I wouldn't say its a common treat at all, but not outside of their grasps.

[Critias]

You're really breaking my belief threshold if you've got the Mafia with deltaware access.

Anyone with enough nuyen's got deltaware access.  That doesn't mean everyone with mob ties is dripping in the stuff, and it doesn't mean they've got their own clinic or anything -- but they're one of those organizations that can just throw money at something they want until it falls into their lap.  It's not something I see them doing real often, mind, but it's something I could see them as capable of.

So as a rare, exceptional, reward?  Sure.  I can see 'em getting ahold of some deltaware.

Now, I'm not sure they'd force it on anyone, I'm not sure they'd go to the trouble before they were sure someone wanted it, and I'm not sure they'd put it on a mage...but as far as getting ahold of it in the first place, I don't see why not.

[All4BigGuns]

Can't sell deltaware for one, and second, why would the boss care if one of the group doesn't want an extra reward he tossed in, it's less cost for him if they decline. The example didn't say as payment, it said as a reward, as in a bonus. There is a downside to staying pure sometimes.

There shouldn't be. If you're screwing the player out of full reward for a mission because they're Awakened and don't want to FUBAR their abilities with 'ware (Mage or Adept either one), then you need to seriously revisit your views on GMing, in my opinion--if not straight up turn in your screen.

[UmaroVI]

It's also a lousy example because the mob boss could just as easily offer everyone free foci. Can't/don't want to bond the foci? Well too bad 

[All4BigGuns]

It's also a lousy example because the mob boss could just as easily offer everyone free foci. Can't/don't want to bond the foci? Well too bad 

If someone is offering delta ware grade implants, then they should be offering foci with ratings equivalent to milspec programs (likely using the same cost formula unless I'm missing where the costs on higher rating foci were published).

[CitizenJoe]

It's also a lousy example because the mob boss could just as easily offer everyone free foci. Can't/don't want to bond the foci? Well too bad 

If someone is offering delta ware grade implants, then they should be offering foci with ratings equivalent to milspec programs (likely using the same cost formula unless I'm missing where the costs on higher rating foci were published).

You offer what you have access to.  If you have access to cash, you offer cash.  If you have access to deltaware, you offer deltaware.  If you have access to foci, you offer foci.  Just because you have one type of treasure, that doesn't mean you have all of them.

For the mob, I would see favors, guns, drugs and BTLs.  Not deltaware. 

If the Ghost Cartels have all kinds of Deltaware, then that is either a matter of power creep on the meta-level, or nouveau riche conspicuous consumption where they are buying the stuff not for need it, but to show off the fact that they CAN buy it.

[All4BigGuns]

You offer what you have access to.  If you have access to cash, you offer cash.  If you have access to deltaware, you offer deltaware.  If you have access to foci, you offer foci.  Just because you have one type of treasure, that doesn't mean you have all of them.

For the mob, I would see favors, guns, drugs and BTLs.  Not deltaware. 

If the Ghost Cartels have all kinds of Deltaware, then that is either a matter of power creep on the meta-level, or nouveau riche conspicuous consumption where they are buying the stuff not for need it, but to show off the fact that they CAN buy it.

That's why I said "if", and I didn't mention the mafia part at all.  Meaning that if it is a group that can offer delta ware, then they should arrange for an equivalent in foci for Awakened team members instead of shafting them (any group/corp with delta access should be able to arrange in some way for pretty nice foci in my opinion).

[CitizenJoe]

A corp with enough money to hire a delta clinic, also has enough money to get a focus.  A corp that DOES delta implants is not using its money, it is using its resources.  Those resources don't necessarily include magical toys.

As an example, lets talk about a hypothetical Delta grade Move by wire system rating 4.  That starts at 2 million nuyen and has an essence cost of 7.  On the street, it runs 7 million and delta grade pushes that up to 56 million nuyen.  Availability is ludicrously high as well, which means spending a mountain of money to even get it available.  A company that does this work could probably do it for a tenth of the base cost in out of pocket expenses (the hardware), the rest just gets reinvested into the company anyway.  So the character walks away with something that would have normally cost him something like a hundred million nuyen but only cost the company 200K.  A company throwing money at the reward would have to pay that hundred million nuyen. 

So, the delta clinic is willing to throw in 200K worth of extra rewards... that's like a hundred million street value product, if you opt for deltaware, or 200K street value for other stuff.  It isn't about what is fair, it is about what form their resources are.

[Orvich]

I'd be seriously miffed at a GM who decided to throw the party a bone that specifically left out my character, unless I had  strong reassurance that the tables would be turned on the next mission or that I'd get some sort of equivalent benefit from a different source.

It's not about what's 'realistic'. As the GM, you specifically tailor the forces of luck and chance, and control all of the (countless) people in the world who aren't PC's or metaplot important. Sure, character flaws should come up (they'll be hurting for not having some pretty vital implants anyways, imo), but that doesn't mean you should specifically engineer situations that can power up some of your PCs while leaving others totally in the lurch.

 Who cares about what is 'realistic' in the game? You get to decide that, honestly. It's just as realistic that someone who has a large deltalab also is big money, and has at least a few mage guards. It's therefore also realistic that they have to outfit these guards, and want to do so in the best way possible. So it's not unreasonable that they either have their own enchanting lab to generate high end equipment for their mages (without worrying about being slighted) or an inside deal on good talismongery. It's also reasonable that when they hired you, they either already knew or you explained some details on what your group is good at and what powers/weapons you have at your disposal, at least in a limited fashion. So, it follows that if they really wanted to make a show of good will, they would know you had mages, would know mages don't necessarily want implants (even delta) and would make an appropriate gift of their reasonably on hand magical materials. Problem solved. You've given the party a nice bonus without leaving out anyone for no real reason, though the mage may or may not still have to invest karma, so in the end their flaw still made it worse off for them.


EDIT: To be clear, who cares about what is 'objectively'  realistic. What you set as reality (Within the limits of the rules/metaplot/setting) is what is. In a situation like this, you can always craft a pretty realistic reason for them to have alternative supplies.

[CitizenJoe]

What if the others still had to pay for their wares?  What if the 'bonus' was merely access and not funding for the operation and gear.  Would you feel better then?

[Orvich]

Not really. Again, you're providing a big opportunity to power way up to only some players. Even if they have to pay for it, and the mage doesn't, but gets no opportunity to enhance themselves via this trade (at all?), you're being weird. Offering foci to the mage still means that they have to pay karma for it, it's not like you're handing them any more of a free lunch.

[Crash_00]

No, you're providing the benefit to all players, just not all players are taking it. There are plenty of pieces of ware that are worth the trade off for both mages and adepts. If the mage or adept doesn't want them, that's their issue. The world isn't perfect out there.

Take the Ghost Cartel campaign for instance. At one point the runners will very likely wind up working for none other Graciela Riveros, owner of Riveros Applied Mimetics, and genius to the point that she has developed numerous gene tweaking and chemical aids. Likewise through the course of the adventure, it's possible to save her ass on more than one occasion. It's not too far of a leap for her to reward the runners with what she has access too in Caracas (home of RAM). Of course if she's busy staying put, trying to keep ties with the outside world down, and diving obsessively into her work, why is she going to give a damn if the purist mage doesn't want to augment their abilities. She doesn't have a Foci factory, and they don't grow on trees (well parts of them might but not the whole thing pre-enchanted).

Slapping ware in mages is not some big no no. It's done constantly (and has been in every addition). Most of the higher ranking combat mage stats have some ware in them (the FBI mages in the same campaign have an essence of 2.6 from their ware). If anything offering up high grade implants as a reward is great for the mages. Unfortunately, for the Sensitive System guy, it's not near as great as for everyone else. It's still there as an option though. It's the player's choice to take the option or not.

She's not going to force the implants into anyone (that was a completely separate example) as a reward, but she doesn't have to "make it up" to anyone either. If you get a free ice cream day at work and all they order is vanilla while you prefer chocolate, do you expect them to make it up to you?

If a player is going to leave because they have to make a choice based on how they want to play their character or based on flaws they've taken for their character, good riddance.

[Leevizer]

Hey guys, guys!

You're all wrong about this reward thing.
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/Themes/JackPoint/images/bbc/spoiler.gif

It makes NO SENSE to offer a mage, a face, a rigger and a Street Samurai the same stuff for completing the mission as a bonus. You know what DOES make sense?

Giving that stuff to one of the team-members. Let's go with the example of high-class cyberware. The GM tells that the mafia big shot or whoever tells them that he can offer the group some new 'ware since they did a good job and he can get it for cheap for *GM inserts some sense-making stuff here so the players believe it.* Neat. Makes sense. The Mage refuses to accept it, and the Face and Rigger propably won't take it, especially if he isn't offering everyone an arm that costs, what, 50 million on the street? The resullt? The street Sam is happy with her new custom-built superarm. And the most important part?

The whole team benefits from it. Seriously. Just because one member gets an "unfair" advantage over the others, they're still a team, so they should be happy. And hey, maybe that Talismonger that they run for next week has an extra Foci she can part with?

Also, about that realism thing... Yes, the gamemaster makes the reality. It shouldn't mean that the players live in candyland, but neither should it mean that if he needs to, for example, pick a player out randomly, he picks the one who would suffer the most. Nope. He should instead choose randomly. That's more realistic. And fun for all parties involved. It's chance. It's not like the evil GM is picking on that one guy because he gets sick easily. And next time it could be him who gets infected.

So, the short version:

1) When giving rewards, give them to just one or two members on the team at a time, but keep a rotation going so everyone is happy.

2) Make the game realistic.

3) Don't pick on players just because you feel like it's bad if he gets extra points. Being picked on, even if they deserve it, generally makes the player unhappy, and if someone seriously tells me that if he'd rather let a friend of his leave the roleplaying group on an evening of roleplaying instead of change the way he acts... Then he's the Uncouth one.

[Black]

Yeah, failing means less than (Power) successes, so you fail if you roll 7 or less successes. You don't take Wound modifiers on resistance tests, and Agony specifies it's as if it was a wound modifier, so no, it doesn't worsen that. There aren't hard rules on glitch/critical glitches for this AFAIK.

This would pretty well mean that the majority of characters might as well not even bother rolling because they don't have enough dice to even come close to the required hits. Anyone see yet why my suggestion is to either not use ghouls at all or heavily house rule the crap out of the disease?

Or, if it's too much, you can simply change the Vector from Contact to Injection.

I've always liked how the infection is contact rather injection simply because it makes ghould a lot more scary as enemies.  Just the fact that any contact, particularly blood splatter, could infect the character is, well, just terrifying to some players.  But the injection vector would tone it down nicely if that was an issue.