Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: bobo69 on <08-08-12/1614:15>
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Well from reading the book a LOT of plots here:
Here are a few:
1. Lofwyr advocating a less bad punishment for Hestaby but the destruction of Alamais. Its hinted that Lofwyr is the mate or is in love with Hestaby. And yes Lofwyr seems to be the most influential as Loremaster of his kind. Not the most powerful though. Hestaby is the greatest dragon magician.
2. Aden hates Lofwyr and Harlequin and its hinted they are enemies from before but forced into an alliance vs....The Big G
3. Ghostwalker is back. Harlequin is about to go to war with Ghostwalker.
4. Lofwyr, Arleesh, Aden & Lung vs. Hestaby, Masaru, Rhonbywy & the Rain Queen
5. Harlqeuin, Aztechnology(yes Harlequin is allying himself with these guys) vs. the Big G
6. A new dragon(not a great one) has awakened in the tomb of the yellow emperor in Xian. That was what the explosion was.
7. Looks like a second front might open up with CAS coming into war vs. Aztlan. The CAS is demanding the return of parts of New Mexico and Texas back to the CAS.
8. Also Lofwyr vs. Sirrurg & Alamais. While Sirrurg is the destroyer, Alamais is the dragon supremacy asshole who has taken over in GEMITO and turned it into its hunting grounds.
9. New dragon weapons, yeah the nano tech weapon looks scary.
10. As for dragons going toxic or becoming insect shamans. Doubt it unless really young and inexperienced. Its hinted that the dragons have magic to cleanse the toxic contamination. the insect spirits are not strong enough to taken on a adult or even great dragon. The magic is just too powerful. But probably the dragons are manipulating the toxics and insects shamans for their own ends.
11. Johnny Spinrad vs. Lofwyr. Spin is trying to fuck Lofwyr's agenda. However Lofwyr is too busy with internal politics though Spinrad might be doing the bidding of Hestaby or Alamais.
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Spinrad and Lofwyr go way back.
As for dragon magician, Hestaby's a big gun, but I'd say that she isn't the top of the pile. My 3-2-1 would, personally, go Ryumyo-Schwartzkopf-Lung, but Hestaby probably sits at #4. IMHO and all that.
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No. Hestaby is definitely the best spellcaster alive.
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Hetaby is the best Spellcaster. Ghostwalker is the best conjurer. I'm not certain who's the strongest or toughest, phsyically though, offhand. GW and Lofwyr are likely in the top 5 though. Lofwyr, though SKm is probably the most overall powerful though.
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Actually, Kaltenstein is the largest, toughest (Body 35), and strongest (Strength 60).
Lofwyr is the second biggest physical badass, then Ghostwalker, and finally everyone else. At least among those assembled Great Dragons from the Rite of Succession council during Survival of the Fittest.
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I don't know if there are any stats for him, but Sirrurg is likely one of the most physically powerful dragons, given that back in the 4th World he was famously obsessed with physical prowess and physical combat, preferring to do his killing with his own claws.
Aban was also famously physically powerful, to point of being second only to Dunkelzhan in size despite being the youngest of the great dragons. But I have no idea if she's still alive in the Sixth World or what name she might be using if she is. If she was still around, then after a few more millenia of growth she'd probably have become the largest and strongest dragon.
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Yeah, but who can win in a drinking contest?
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Now....what about the stuff up with FastJack?
His mis-remembering that a)Fatima was dead and b) who wrote an article.
His rather un-FastJack like comment at..dev/grrl? Icarus? and then saying he didn't remember
posting it?
(and that is just where I am right now in the reading)
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Why would Arleesh even do any fighting? I thought she was busy functioning as a cleanser to tainted magical artifacts?
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Also, Schwartzkopf is a skilled teacher. An artificer. Hestaby's skill with magic is immensely greater, and so is her skill in picking strong Awakened for her Shasta Shamans group.
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Hetaby is the best Spellcaster. Ghostwalker is the best conjurer. I'm not certain who's the strongest or toughest, phsyically though, offhand. GW and Lofwyr are likely in the top 5 though. Lofwyr, though SKm is probably the most overall powerful though.
Well, I default to you and James, obviously, but I'll be sulking for a bit. I guess that Lung and Schwartzkopf just have more *gravitas* in my mind and, as such, should get primacy in their chosen field.
Ghostwalker is top conjurer, however, has no doubt. :)
And, as noted by another, I think Sirrug might be the beefiest physically. Doesn't mean much in THIS day and age, but hey. :)
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Actually, Kaltenstein is the largest, toughest (Body 35), and strongest (Strength 60).
Lofwyr is the second biggest physical badass, then Ghostwalker, and finally everyone else. At least among those assembled Great Dragons from the Rite of Succession council during Survival of the Fittest.
When I said most poweful overall, I mean that in a general sense. (Which you may have caught, I'm not certain, but I'm clarifying anyway). :)
He's powerful magically and phsyically, even if not the top dog in either field. But he's also got sole control of a megacorp, something no other dragon can match. And for all the wealth, knowledge, and power the other dragons have, a fraggin' Corp trumps them all, especially when added to his already considerable talents and assets.
Ghostwalkers still my favorite great dragon though (Well, living one, anyway). I just like his moxie and attitude. Lofwyr has the ruthless corper thing down, but in the long run, he's sold out to become "the man". Ghostwalker though, he's not afraid of anyone's drek, and he's willing to back his words up with action. :)
Sirrug is also fun.
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Well, I default to you and James, obviously, but I'll be sulking for a bit. I guess that Lung and Schwartzkopf just have more *gravitas* in my mind and, as such, should get primacy in their chosen field.
Ghostwalker is top conjurer, however, has no doubt. :)
And, as noted by another, I think Sirrug might be the beefiest physically. Doesn't mean much in THIS day and age, but hey. :)
Gravity and dignity do not make you powerful, unfortunately. And among dragons, I'd be willing to bet that's a sign that they've learned their limitations, Likely the hard way. So they sit back and concentrate on doing what they do.
I imagine Schartz as The Teacher and Lung as the Philosopher. Lofwyr's the Lord. Ghostwalker is the Conjurer. Hestaby is the Sorceress. Sirrug is the Destroyer.
Hrmm, I actually like that, assigning titles to the dragons. Anyone got any more (or better ones?) I imagine most Dragons have their niche, their role.
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Well from reading the book a LOT of plots here
Interesting...
Fortunately I have an American friend who will be at Gencon, so I've put my best Johnson costume and hired him to get some books at the Catalyst booth for me :p
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Actually, Kaltenstein is the largest, toughest (Body 35), and strongest (Strength 60).
Lofwyr is the second biggest physical badass, then Ghostwalker, and finally everyone else. At least among those assembled Great Dragons from the Rite of Succession council during Survival of the Fittest.
When I said most poweful overall, I mean that in a general sense. (Which you may have caught, I'm not certain, but I'm clarifying anyway). :)
I was specifically replying to this
I'm not certain who's the strongest or toughest, phsyically though, offhand. GW and Lofwyr are likely in the top 5 though.
I will of course grant that as a matter of global and draconic power and influence Lofwyr is #1.
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Well from reading the book a LOT of plots here
Interesting...
Fortunately I have an American friend who will be at Gencon, so I've put my best Johnson costume and hired him to get some books at the Catalyst booth for me :p
Really sucks not having bought off my "Hung out to Dry" flaw. No contacts anywhere near Gen-Con. :'(
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Well from reading the book a LOT of plots here
Interesting...
Fortunately I have an American friend who will be at Gencon, so I've put my best Johnson costume and hired him to get some books at the Catalyst booth for me :p
Really sucks not having bought off my "Hung out to Dry" flaw. No contacts anywhere near Gen-Con. :'(
Always thought that was a cwappy quality and this just proves it ;)
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Well, I default to you and James, obviously, but I'll be sulking for a bit. I guess that Lung and Schwartzkopf just have more *gravitas* in my mind and, as such, should get primacy in their chosen field.
Ghostwalker is top conjurer, however, has no doubt. :)
And, as noted by another, I think Sirrug might be the beefiest physically. Doesn't mean much in THIS day and age, but hey. :)
Gravity and dignity do not make you powerful, unfortunately. And among dragons, I'd be willing to bet that's a sign that they've learned their limitations, Likely the hard way. So they sit back and concentrate on doing what they do.
I imagine Schartz as The Teacher and Lung as the Philosopher. Lofwyr's the Lord. Ghostwalker is the Conjurer. Hestaby is the Sorceress. Sirrug is the Destroyer.
Hrmm, I actually like that, assigning titles to the dragons. Anyone got any more (or better ones?) I imagine most Dragons have their niche, their role.
Implied a bit with their actual names in some areas, I think, but, hrm.
Masaru would be the Prodigy, both young and talented.
Arleesh would be the Purifier.
Celadyr would be the Linguist, normally a minor thing but, in the Sixth World, the Matrix was a boon for him.
Alamais is the Hater. Because haters gonna hate. :)
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Alamais is the Hater
So now they have internet meme titles? Good Guy Dunkelzahn? Makes me wonder who's the Troll.
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Slight off tangent question, but since it has to do with Harlequins blood feud, why exactly does he blame Ghostwalker for Aina's death, and what happened to her?
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She died at the end of Artifacts Unbound when Ghostwalker went back through the Watergate Rift.
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Thanks GM has declared those books off limits so I had no idea. Kind of liked her.
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Alamais is the Hater
So now they have internet meme titles? Good Guy Dunkelzahn? Makes me wonder who's the Troll.
While not a dragon, I would have to label Harlequin as the troll, many of his posts on the old shadowland seem to fit the bill imo.
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Internet Meme's died a horrible, horrible death by 2050, since it was possible to actually reach out and KILL the folks posting that stupid crap. In fact the first true decker "war" that was waged following the original Crash Virus was against 4Chan, and many, many mornons were killed nearly instantly. And it was glorious.
So no. No stupid Meme names for dragons.
:)
Bull
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Thanks GM has declared those books off limits so I had no idea. Kind of liked her.
Really? I mean, I know it's a campaign book but the story at the end should ... Well, it's at the end of the book for a reason. So maybe I shouldn't have said anything.
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Internet Meme's died a horrible, horrible death by 2050, since it was possible to actually reach out and KILL the folks posting that stupid crap. In fact the first true decker "war" that was waged following the original Crash Virus was against 4Chan, and many, many mornons were killed nearly instantly. And it was glorious.
So no. No stupid Meme names for dragons.
:)
Bull
They died in 2029, to be exact. I had to write out that part of the SR2050 Matrix Chapter as I was going over the allotted space I had. 4Chan is a forgone memory only held in the nightmares of drunks now.
Matrix Memes, OTOH, are alive and well until cranky old Deckers get their electronic hands on them.
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Yeah, but who can win in a drinking contest?
Damon.
And I just gotta say, Harlequin teaming up with the Azzies to take on Ghostwalker gives me all kinds of chills.
Plus, what's up with Aina? Way it seems, she's not really dead, more like... ascended, perhaps? Might be we have the Sixth World's first Passion?
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First new Passion anyway. Makes me wonder if she'd be as unstable as the Others.
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Matrix Memes, OTOH, are alive and well until cranky old Deckers get their electronic hands on them.
WHat do you think Bull spends his down time doing? He's got a a really big Black Hammer program and he likes to go hunting.
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Yeah, but who can win in a drinking contest?
Damon.
And I just gotta say, Harlequin teaming up with the Azzies to take on Ghostwalker gives me all kinds of chills.
Plus, what's up with Aina? Way it seems, she's not really dead, more like... ascended, perhaps? Might be we have the Sixth World's first Passion?
Who knows?
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Well, I default to you and James, obviously, but I'll be sulking for a bit. I guess that Lung and Schwartzkopf just have more *gravitas* in my mind and, as such, should get primacy in their chosen field.
Ghostwalker is top conjurer, however, has no doubt. :)
And, as noted by another, I think Sirrug might be the beefiest physically. Doesn't mean much in THIS day and age, but hey. :)
Gravity and dignity do not make you powerful, unfortunately. And among dragons, I'd be willing to bet that's a sign that they've learned their limitations, Likely the hard way. So they sit back and concentrate on doing what they do.
I imagine Schartz as The Teacher and Lung as the Philosopher. Lofwyr's the Lord. Ghostwalker is the Conjurer. Hestaby is the Sorceress. Sirrug is the Destroyer.
Hrmm, I actually like that, assigning titles to the dragons. Anyone got any more (or better ones?) I imagine most Dragons have their niche, their role.
Alamis: the Shadow
Arleesh: the Sentinel
Aden: The Watcher
*shrugs*
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First new Passion anyway. Makes me wonder if she'd be as unstable as the Others.
Don't count the old Passions out yet.
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And now I have this vaguely unformed concept of a Passion based around Canadianism. It involves beer, moose, beaver, and hockey, but is somehow always polite about it.
http://www.harkavagrant.com/nonsense/batchcanadasm.png
Curse you, CanRay!
Curse you for all tiiiiiiime...
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And now I have this vaguely unformed concept of a Passion based around Canadianism. It involves beer, moose, beaver, and hockey, but is somehow always polite about it.
http://www.harkavagrant.com/nonsense/batchcanadasm.png
Curse you, CanRay!
Curse you for all tiiiiiiime...
And sacrifices of banana Timbits
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I'm thinking that whatever happened to Aina has something to do with the mental link the other elves there are finding themselves with. Only have the vaguest of ideas how that could be, though.
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I'm thinking that whatever happened to Aina has something to do with the mental link the other elves there are finding themselves with. Only have the vaguest of ideas how that could be, though.
And where, by chance, is this mental link mentioned or alluded to?
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The Clutch of Dragons.
On Sale Now! (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=8204)
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Spinrad and Lofwyr go way back.
What Wak said. Basically short of it it, when Lofwyr took SK he pissed a lot of old guard powerful people especially in Europe. Johnny Spinrad is now the groups defacto leader and "face". I don't see this going all that well for them but they will likely cause Goldensnout some heartburn (one way or another). It's a shame though as spinrad is one of my favorite "tier 2" corps and ever since DE:Human Revolution i kind of have this image stuck in my head (accurate or not) of Johnny Spinrad as a David Sarif type figure.
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Matrix Memes, OTOH, are alive and well until cranky old Deckers get their electronic hands on them.
WHat do you think Bull spends his down time doing? He's got a a really big Black Hammer program and he likes to go hunting.
And what do you think Slamm-0! spends all of HIS time doing? He loves making that ork work. ;)
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And what do you think Slamm-0! spends all of HIS time doing? He loves making that ork work. ;)
What spare time? He's a work-at-home Dad.
Netcat, OTOH...
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2. Aden hates Lofwyr and Harlequin and its hinted they are enemies from before but forced into an alliance vs....The Big G
3. Ghostwalker is back. Harlequin is about to go to war with Ghostwalker.
5. Harlqeuin, Aztechnology(yes Harlequin is allying himself with these guys) vs. the Big G
So I was thinking... Next big campaign book: Harlequin's Revenge?
I always felt everyone's favorite painted elf should have a third book named after him :)
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2. Aden hates Lofwyr and Harlequin and its hinted they are enemies from before but forced into an alliance vs....The Big G
3. Ghostwalker is back. Harlequin is about to go to war with Ghostwalker.
5. Harlqeuin, Aztechnology(yes Harlequin is allying himself with these guys) vs. the Big G
So I was thinking... Next big campaign book: Harlequin's Revenge?
I always felt everyone's favorite painted elf should have a third book named after him :)
if they do that, should have a picture of him chewing bubble gum, in the middle of a fight, where he is litterally kicking
someone in the arse, while wearing a t-shirt that says "They live!"
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if they do that, should have a picture of him chewing bubble gum, in the middle of a fight, where he is litterally kicking
someone in the arse, while wearing a t-shirt that says "They live!"
That would kick ass, obviosuly :)
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if they do that, should have a picture of him chewing bubble gum, in the middle of a fight, where he is litterally kicking
someone in the arse, while wearing a t-shirt that says "They live!"
That would kick ass, obviosuly :)
And be so TOTALLY Shadowrun, too!(because Shadowrun should have homages like that!)
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So I was thinking... Next big campaign book: Harlequin's Revenge?
I always felt everyone's favorite painted elf should have a third book named after him :)
I'm reminded of a Matt Damon quote.
"So, you're done the Borne Identity, the Borne Supremacy, and the Borne Ultimatum, will you be doing any more of these?"
"There's talk about it, but I've told them that if I do, I get to name it, and it'll be The Borne Redundancy."
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Well, Harlequin was quite different from Harlequin's Back, while the Bourne movies were all pretty much the same.
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Indeed.
I was very, very intent on making sure that the material I wrote for this book was useful to give PCs and GMs plenty of opportunities for runs and campaign shenanigans even though the premise involves conflicts between millennia-old lizards. I also think at some point there will also have to be more exploration of the business of Adult Dragons, though I think Clutch struck a good balance by covering Peri and the two Seattle dragons as well as the big wyrms.
However, this is about Harlequin. As of now, there are a lot of ways that he can be involved in a game, directly or indirectly, more than before. It also bridges the gap between Harlequin, where he's feuding with Ehran, and Harlequin's Back, where he's saving the world. There is also the matter of his errant former Familiar, which is something else to consider. Clearly, the big plot involves his feud with Ghostwalker. However, there are all sorts of things going on with him besides that.
It also remains to be seen if anyone on JackPoint takes him up on his offer.
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I could see Kane taking him up on it, to be honest. Definitely his kind of crazy. Don't know how many others would join up, though. I don't see any of the mercs or mages being crazy enough to take on a great dragon on his own turf, unless they were getting some of those anti-dragon weapons as part of their payment. The hacker crowd would be of limited use, as well. That leaves... who? Clockwork? Butch? Mr. Bonds? Cosmo? Baka Dabora? Kia? No, can't see any of them getting in it.
Still, if there was anything to draw Sir Dodger out of whatever hole he's been hiding in, it would be an epic quest from the Last Knight of the Crying Spire...
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Well, I had half an hour to kill...
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4218/harlequinsrevenge.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/harlequinsrevenge.jpg/)
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That's awesome.
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That's awesome.
Ditto. Huzzah to you sir, you made me laugh. Heres a +1.
Also, share that on the art thread please.
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She died at the end of Artifacts Unbound when Ghostwalker went back through the Watergate Rift.
Srsly...I remember her chanelling megatone equivalent of mana energy. Though I dont recall seeing dead body. Or any comments on this. It may be my bad understanding of english so I can be a bit confused on what happened in DC, but I recall her amazing everyone nearby and then no more mentions of her. So something may had happened to her. But dead...well, possible but not certain...
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We actually let the cat out of the bag early on that one because her death was announced in Street Legends, which came out before Artifacts Unbound. So she doesn't die on the page, but she did die.
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+1 to Marzhin, indeed!
Glad to see one of the Immortal Elves go down, but she's not one of the ones I would have picked.
Shadowrun! We're not afraid to break our toys. :)
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Oh, that mock cover is incredible! Nice work!
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Thanks everyone :) I did it just for fun, but I'm happy to see people like it ^^
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It's out on Facebook now....... I just saw it pop up.
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I have to wonder, how much did the Artifacts plot arc play in the German and French Shadowrun? Because with all those IEs and GDs who showed up at the Watergate Rift, there were notable exceptions.
It was also surprising that Jenna Ni Fairra was a no-show. Or was she considered to be still recovering?
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I have to wonder, how much did the Artifacts plot arc play in the German and French Shadowrun? Because with all those IEs and GDs who showed up at the Watergate Rift, there were notable exceptions.
It was also surprising that Jenna Ni Fairra was a no-show. Or was she considered to be still recovering?
The Artifact books (Dawn and Unbound) have not been released in France yet, so I don't know if there are plans to have extra "local" scenarios.
Or have I misunderstood your question? ???
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It was also surprising that Jenna Ni Fairra was a no-show. Or was she considered to be still recovering?
OK, I haven't fully read them to run them yet, but...recovering from what, exactly?
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Has she finally Popped thorns?
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Not from lack of trying. Although it's far from definite that she was trying to recreate the Ritual of Thorns :o . . . You'd think her mother would have warned her.
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You think THAT family, of all the IEs, is the kind to listen to their elders when they say "Don't do this"?
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Considering Jenna's mother is still running around as well? Jenna better have a reeeeeaaaaalllllly good explanation.
Mind you, considering the Harlequin-Surehand scene, I'd love to read a Harlequin-Jenna/Sosan scene.
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Shadowrun! We're not afraid to break our toys. :)
Hell, they're not afraid to break their Freelancers...
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Now....what about the stuff up with FastJack?
His mis-remembering that a)Fatima was dead and b) who wrote an article.
His rather un-FastJack like comment at..dev/grrl? Icarus? and then saying he didn't remember
posting it?
(and that is just where I am right now in the reading)
Not only this. Compromising JackPoint at the head is one element. FastJack is the key element in which we trust about the integrity of JackPoint.
Puck mentioned that he has doubts about the independence of the Denver Nexus. Which, in the end, questioned the integrity of the data heaven also, how much can we trust the Nexus anymore.
Someone is working to discredit two of our main information sources?
Adding the degauss element from "Spy Games" the technomancer part in me gets heavy stomachaches about the future.
Have we any actual news about the Helix?
*Plan9 mode on*
It's a war on reliability of digital informations. The more, a war on our established way to living in a world of wifi.
*Plan9 mode off*
On the other hand I don't agree Plan9 about the involvement of The Order of Skull and Bones. That's a bit to freaky to me.
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Are there any relevant news of Lung, Ryumyo and Shan (member of the executive council of Hong Kong)?
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Compromising JackPoint at the head is one element. FastJack is the key element in which we trust about the integrity of JackPoint.
Put it that way, you got me paranoid. Now I fear the whole thing is just going to be an excuse to shamelessly retcon anything posted on Shadowland and Jackpoint in the past twenty years.
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Are there any relevant news of Lung, Ryumyo and Shan (member of the executive council of Hong Kong)?
Indirectly.
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Compromising JackPoint at the head is one element. FastJack is the key element in which we trust about the integrity of JackPoint.
Put it that way, you got me paranoid. Now I fear the whole thing is just going to be an excuse to shamelessly retcon anything posted on Shadowland and Jackpoint in the past twenty years.
Unnecessary. It's plot element placement for future work.
Not only this. Compromising JackPoint at the head is one element. FastJack is the key element in which we trust about the integrity of JackPoint.
Puck mentioned that he has doubts about the independence of the Denver Nexus. Which, in the end, questioned the integrity of the data heaven also, how much can we trust the Nexus anymore.
Someone is working to discredit two of our main information sources?
Adding the degauss element from "Spy Games" the technomancer part in me gets heavy stomachaches about the future.
Have we any actual news about the Helix?
Puck's commentary isn't new, really; the Nexus retained its very existence due to Mr. White Scales, which means that even though they can claim pure independence all they want, the fact that he has a direct and indestructable (in the 'cut this and be destroyed') line into the Nexus makes their independence 'so-called'. They are dependent and they know it; their Papa Bear may not lean on them much, or even at all, but anyone who puts absolute trust in the inviobility of the Nexus is in for a shock. (And for the record, the Nexus was never a bloody safe place, it was just the biggest and most data-packed.)
FastJack's a different matter; someone is definitely working on him, and/or already has. From what I remember of side-chat here, he may have gotten winged by psychotropic IC of some flavor during his discussion about detente' with the 'good' people of Horizon. That, or, well -- Jack's old. I know we like to think he's had Leonization applied, but do we know he has? Or is he undergoing the slow slide into Alzheimer's? Taken one too many hits from the snake?
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That is true. 'Jack is pushing 80, and there's no evidence that Leonization has any effect on conditions like Alzheimers, or getting hit one too many times by the Black IC. The encounter with possible psychotropic IC likely didn't help things any. I'd say it is likely coming up on time for Fastjack to retire.
As for Puck's commentary, yeah, those concerns have been around since Ghostwalker showed up. And yes, you should count on anything hosted on the Nexus coming under the white wyrm's gaze at some point. But the old Shadow Matrix was never exactly a super-secure place, given that many of the movers and shakers had legit accounts on Shadowland.
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Compromising JackPoint at the head is one element. FastJack is the key element in which we trust about the integrity of JackPoint.
Put it that way, you got me paranoid. Now I fear the whole thing is just going to be an excuse to shamelessly retcon anything posted on Shadowland and Jackpoint in the past twenty years.
(http://sharetv.org/images/guide/116953.jpg)
"He's a giant chicken!"
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Are there any relevant news of Lung, Ryumyo and Shan (member of the executive council of Hong Kong)?
Indirectly.
Any idea, why Lung and Ryumyo are not part of the articles within the appropriate section of the book? I do understand about Shan. He's a small-timer. But the other two are majoer player's, aren't they?
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So my friend got back from the US yeterday and handed me the precious books. Cluth of Dragons, SR 2050, Elven Blood, and the 2 decks of gear cards :D
After ready some bits of Clutch (mostly the stuff about the Laughing Man and Ghostie since I'm a big fan of both), here are some thoughts...
- I like the idea of Harlequin being a anti-hero and not a "good guy". Some of the old, nastier Harlequin from his debut campaign is back, and he's pretty badass. I just hope Ghostwalker don't fry him, Harlequin is too good a character to die like that.
- Is it "Caimbeul" or "Caimbuel"?
- Harlequin on Jackpoint, yes please :p I love how he call them "selfish" compared to Shadowland.
- Erhan sending messages to Harlequin to try and reason him is nice, it kinda shows he cares for him... somewhat. Extra points for the "Caimbuel and Erhan are brothers theory" (that and Frosty's comment about "what we now know we have in common").
- Is Zebulon Yuichotol, Ghostwalker's mate from the pre-Earthdawn era that was killed by the Therans? It sure reads that way (plus Yuichotol was rumoured to have remained as a spirit after her death). Funny thing, one of the first campaigns I made for my players back in SR3 was about Ghostwalker trying to use the Crystal of Memories (or whatever it was called, it's in The Big D's will) to bring back Yuichotol's spirit.
- I like how Ghostwalker is portrayed in the last short story.
- It seems a lot of people are being pissed by Ghostwalker. Harlequin, Colloton and the UCAS, the Azzies, Aden, Lofwyr... Things are about to get really nasty.
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Yeah, I have to say that the new face of Harlequin is damned interesting. I have no idea where he's going, but it's gonna be one Hell of a journey.
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Are there any relevant news of Lung, Ryumyo and Shan (member of the executive council of Hong Kong)?
Indirectly.
Any idea, why Lung and Ryumyo are not part of the articles within the appropriate section of the book? I do understand about Shan. He's a small-timer. But the other two are majoer player's, aren't they?
They haven't taken sides in the Hestaby-Lofwyr conflict, and other than that ... Can't say.
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Any idea, why Lung and Ryumyo are not part of the articles within the appropriate section of the book? I do understand about Shan. He's a small-timer. But the other two are majoer player's, aren't they?
They haven't taken sides in the Hestaby-Lofwyr conflict, and other than that ... Can't say.
Yes, they have. Though granted, that isn't in the article...
Remember, kiddies, read the stories too. In some cases, the stories give as much info as the articles do ...
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In some cases, they give far, far more. ;D
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That boardroom scene really shows Lofwyr trying very hard to not have the other dragons go after Hestaby.
Was it in Conspiracy Theories that the JackPointers posited that Lofwyr and Hestaby were in collusion? Or am I just misinterpreting things and there's real animosity between the Orange and Gold lizards?
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They haven't taken sides in the Hestaby-Lofwyr conflict, and other than that ... Can't say.
Yes, they have. Though granted, that isn't in the article...
Remember, kiddies, read the stories too. In some cases, the stories give as much info as the articles do ...
Thank you very much for your answers. Hope, there'll be more infos on them some time.
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That boardroom scene really shows Lofwyr trying very hard to not have the other dragons go after Hestaby.
Was it in Conspiracy Theories that the JackPointers posited that Lofwyr and Hestaby were in collusion? Or am I just misinterpreting things and there's real animosity between the Orange and Gold lizards?
That's the theory, but Lofwyr was fairly specific as to why violence against Hestaby was not appropriate, while possible violence against Alamais was. So yeah - Lofwyr is in a challenge position against Hestaby, but when it boils down to it, both of them are against the way Alamais is treating GeMiTo as his personal humans-hunting-grounds.
I'd be willing to bet ... well, never mind. But it winds up with Sirrug in prison and Alamais interred.
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Not that Golden Snout has ever needed a reason for violence against his little brother...
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Yes, but not lethally - obviously. After all, even a rabid dog has its uses, so long as it's being rabid in someone else's back yard.
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That boardroom scene really shows Lofwyr trying very hard to not have the other dragons go after Hestaby.
Was it in Conspiracy Theories that the JackPointers posited that Lofwyr and Hestaby were in collusion? Or am I just misinterpreting things and there's real animosity between the Orange and Gold lizards?
The boardroom scene had a LOT of layers in it. Aden and Lofwyr are not on the best of terms, as you could see from the constant tugging. Lofwyr the Loremaster requires respect and deferrence, but Lofwyr-who-crapped-in-Aden's-backyard, not so much. Aden's at the foot of the table, given less status than the lesser dragons there as a direct insult. Lofwyr's right and left claws are giving advice, but clearly aren't on the same page as he is. There's a LOT of strife showing there, and there's going to be a ton of favors and markers called up. This whole affair is COSTLY, and it shows.
Mind you, I'm an L5R fan, so I get goosebumps whenever someone's using a soft hand to demolish someone politely. There're at least five power plays going on in the boardroom, some of which aren't being discussed in words. You might also take note of who ISN'T sitting around the table. Silence can speak volumes.
And look! Arleesh! In a speaking role! Woohoo!
At some point, Lofwyr is going to have to put on a dominance display. I don't know who he'll target with it, or what form it'll take, but sometime in the not-so-distant future, he's going to have to break out his inner Godzilla and show the other dragons why he's the boss. If he doesn't, he'll have much bigger problems than Hestaby, Alamais, and Sirrug.
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Didn't he do that already with Nachtmeister? That's just a moment ago, by draconic standards.
But yeah, at some point, there is going to be a battle between Lofwyr and another dragon. Personally, I want to see a three-way brawl between Ghostwalker, Lofwyr, and the Jester's Army over Denver. :)
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The Jester's Army = ... ?? Are we talking Harlequin, here? Any way you mix-master that, pretty much you'd see Ghostwalker and Lofwyr teaming up to destroy that which is attacking them, possibly with Saeder-Krupp military assistance - and only THEN would you have the hoe-down between Ghostwalker and Lofwyr.
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We don't know more about the "hostile takeover" of a weapons satellite, do we?
Just a theory: a dragon did it. As in, they sponsored the run. First, it hit Aztechnology. Second, it forced the Corporate Court justices to take Thor shots off the table for the time being--the biggest sticks metahumanity has to swing at the dragons.
Also, since I'm laying out unsubstantiated rumours here, what are the chances that the whole Lofwyr / Hestaby thing is due to mating? Lofwyr makes a point that he considers Hestaby worth saving because she's a female and can still produce eggs. The counter argument is that the capacity to bring new dragons into the world has never been factored into life / death decisions and that Hestaby has chosen not to have kids this cycle.
I think Lofwyr wants to have babies with Hestaby.
He's wily, she's magical, and their kids would be some weird burnt orange/gold shade probably. Copper scaled? Anyway, yeah. It explains the rather restrained moves and Lofwyr's reluctance.
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My group is laying bets as to the decision over the fact that this is a war of conflict, or a mating ritual.
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The Lofwyr-Hestaby mate match was proposed in the fiction piece at the end of Survival of the Fittest. FYI.
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RE: Thor shots being out of play.
As of late I've been trying very hard not to comment one way or another on a lot of SR work, because frankly I'm a bit close to some of the people involved and actually as of this writing have my own couple of bits of work that I'm frantically pounding on trying to get into shape.. That's not to say that all my comments would be negative, far from it, I've very much enjoyed some of the books that have come out lately. Having said that:
I'm already kind of hating Clutch of Dragons
Now i've always been kind of ambivalent on dragons as a plot device in part because they skew the setting so horribly towards the magic side of things. Frankly only in a world where firearms, fighter jets, tanks, and other assorted military hardware so inexplicably weak does the current plot sort of work. I've always chalked some of this up as a conscious and direct decision to keep stuff that might reasonably fall into PC hands down to a certain level. It's not a decision process I agree with but I can certainly see the merits of it.
But now for reasons of "plot" the Thor shots are suddenly offline, a to my knowledge one paragraph item invented for the sole purpose of "why does someone not ruin our Earthdawn love affair with a modern age weapon." suddenly they are offline. Can anyone point me to any pre-existing mention or cause for this? Someone hacking and re-purposing space based weaponry (there was the Pulsar incident, but I thought that had more or less been swept under the rug) should pretty much be a setting changing event, because it means things that were previously more or less beyond the realm of hacking, air traffic control, nuclear reactors, thor shots, are suddenly vulnerable.
I keep trying to come up with a less caustic way to write this but the thought that keeps running through my head as I'm reading the book basically boils down to this. Some of you may realize this is not a new complaint for me, but it's never been this acute.:
I'm really kind of disappointed that at some point Shadowrun stopped being it's own game with it's own identity and became just the future of Earthdawn. I'm actually saddened that the technological side of the house the chrome, the matrix, the transhumanistic elements have all just become set pieces so we can do this draconic plot and the artifacts plot.
There I got that off my chest, i feel better.
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It was the goal in one of the adventures in Jet Set.
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Nor has hacking a Thor shot ever been off the board. Of the three you mention (Thor shots, air traffic control, nuclear power plants) possibly the only one that would realistically ever be utterly secure from hacking would be nuclear power plants. ATC has probably been hacked dozens of times, specifically to take out various flights with a VIP on them; there are several possible examples, whether of Corporate Court Justices or of corporate moguls. Thor shots are necessarily innately linked to ground control, and thus are hackable.
Nuclear power plants, on the other hand, I can very easily see being set up with the best tech out there while keeping it sneakernet. No wireless internet for these places; in fact, either every single wall in the place is wireless-inhibiting or they're running a constant jamming code against wireless matrix attempts; maybe both. However, every single one of their systems should be wired, and the only unwired thing on the grounds should be the guard's radio link with base.
The Grail of hacking has always been Z-O, though. And we know that that's been hacked.
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But now for reasons of "plot" the Thor shots are suddenly offline, a to my knowledge one paragraph item invented for the sole purpose of "why does someone not ruin our Earthdawn love affair with a modern age weapon." suddenly they are offline. Can anyone point me to any pre-existing mention or cause for this? Someone hacking and re-purposing space based weaponry (there was the Pulsar incident, but I thought that had more or less been swept under the rug) should pretty much be a setting changing event, because it means things that were previously more or less beyond the realm of hacking, air traffic control, nuclear reactors, thor shots, are suddenly vulnerable.
As James Meiers said, Jet Set (which in spite of the title and what it reads on the back, has little to do with the living style of the rich and the powerful) features one adventure, "Operation Blindside", which has the PC infiltrating Aztechnology world headquarters in Tenochtitlan to steal codes and then their Spindle space station to hack all the corporation's observation and attack satellites in a single day or so. It mentions the Corporate Court issuing a secret edict to turn all satellite weapons offline because of the demonstration. All we know is Johnson spent a few weeks in Africa before meeting the runners.
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But now for reasons of "plot" the Thor shots are suddenly offline, a to my knowledge one paragraph item invented for the sole purpose of "why does someone not ruin our Earthdawn love affair with a modern age weapon." suddenly they are offline. Can anyone point me to any pre-existing mention or cause for this? Someone hacking and re-purposing space based weaponry (there was the Pulsar incident, but I thought that had more or less been swept under the rug) should pretty much be a setting changing event, because it means things that were previously more or less beyond the realm of hacking, air traffic control, nuclear reactors, thor shots, are suddenly vulnerable.
As James Meiers said, Jet Set (which in spite of the title and what it reads on the back, has little to do with jet the living style of rich and the powerful) features one adventure, "Operation Blindside", which has the PC infiltrating Aztechnology world headquarters in Tenochtitlan to steal codes and then their Spindle space station to hack all the corporation's observation and attack satellites in a single day or so. It mentions the Corporate Court issuing a secret edict to turn all satellite weapons offline because of the demonstration. All we know is Johnson spent a few weeks in Africa before meeting the runners.
Now that sounds like an epic run! It also sound like a death sentence for the runners involved...
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But now for reasons of "plot" the Thor shots are suddenly offline, a to my knowledge one paragraph item invented for the sole purpose of "why does someone not ruin our Earthdawn love affair with a modern age weapon." suddenly they are offline. Can anyone point me to any pre-existing mention or cause for this? Someone hacking and re-purposing space based weaponry (there was the Pulsar incident, but I thought that had more or less been swept under the rug) should pretty much be a setting changing event, because it means things that were previously more or less beyond the realm of hacking, air traffic control, nuclear reactors, thor shots, are suddenly vulnerable.
As James Meiers said, Jet Set (which in spite of the title and what it reads on the back, has little to do with jet the living style of rich and the powerful) features one adventure, "Operation Blindside", which has the PC infiltrating Aztechnology world headquarters in Tenochtitlan to steal codes and then their Spindle space station to hack all the corporation's observation and attack satellites in a single day or so. It mentions the Corporate Court issuing a secret edict to turn all satellite weapons offline because of the demonstration. All we know is Johnson spent a few weeks in Africa before meeting the runners.
Now that sounds like an epic run! It also sound like a death sentence for the runners involved...
In other words, "Tuesday" for some shadow teams. ;)
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RE: Thor shots being out of play.
As of late I've been trying very hard not to comment one way or another on a lot of SR work, because frankly I'm a bit close to some of the people involved and actually as of this writing have my own couple of bits of work that I'm frantically pounding on trying to get into shape.. That's not to say that all my comments would be negative, far from it, I've very much enjoyed some of the books that have come out lately. Having said that:
I'm already kind of hating Clutch of Dragons
Now i've always been kind of ambivalent on dragons as a plot device in part because they skew the setting so horribly towards the magic side of things. Frankly only in a world where firearms, fighter jets, tanks, and other assorted military hardware so inexplicably weak does the current plot sort of work.
*snip*
I keep trying to come up with a less caustic way to write this but the thought that keeps running through my head as I'm reading the book basically boils down to this. Some of you may realize this is not a new complaint for me, but it's never been this acute.:
I'm really kind of disappointed that at some point Shadowrun stopped being it's own game with it's own identity and became just the future of Earthdawn. I'm actually saddened that the technological side of the house the chrome, the matrix, the transhumanistic elements have all just become set pieces so we can do this draconic plot and the artifacts plot.
There I got that off my chest, i feel better.
You know, its weird finding someone else who is thinking the same things I am. You said exactly what I've been trying to put to words for a while now but couldn't. I always hate criticizing the companies I buy games from because it makes it seem like I don't appreciate their work. That's far from the case. I also know that not everyone will agree with me and my likes and dislikes. Not everyone can be or will be pleased by what Gaming Company A ads into their sourcebooks. Anyway, I just needed to add that here.
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Thor shots are necessarily innately linked to ground control, and thus are hackable.
That's assuming you can get close enough to the ground station in the first place to learn on what band and frequency they're using to communicate with the sat, and get more than a peek at the encryption and protocol as well. It can be possibly more simple to sneak into one of the secured facility that keep the classified technical documentation. None of them are unlikely to be any less secure or wireless than a nuclear power plant. Besides, it seems some satellite weapons constellation have no ground station, and are controlled from a space station (that seems to be the case at least for Aztechnology, per the aforementioned adventure, and Ares, according to Target: Wastelands). An alternative would be to get your own listening satellite in orbit close enough to the Thor shot to eavesdrop on its incoming and outcoming communication.
Then, yes, having gathered the needed intelligence, you will be able to hack a Thor shot from anywhere. Well, anywhere with the appropriate antenna, which, depending on the frequency, can be as practical and common as a ten-meters dish.
The fun part is, any military of the Sixth World could consider this well within range for an actual opposing force, and thus set up additional layers of security into this, like one-time pads for critical instructions, pre-set sets of targeting coordinates (like nuclear weapons) and the likes.
I think it can be much easier to sneak into a nuclear plant and plant a remote control of some sort.
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For what it's worth, I like the Dragon CIvil War plot, simply because of the fallout that it's generating. By tradition, a dragon going tooth-n-claw with another means that one of 'em ain't walking away, so, they have proxy wars instead, which means that PCs get hired to do things.
And plots that involve the PCs doing things are GOOD, while plots that say, "You sit around and watch two immortals duke it out. Look at how cool they are!" is BAD.
As for magic, yeah, the artifacts leaned on that side of things, and a bunch of the plots over the past few years have as well since magic is what separates Shadowrun from other cyberpunk, but you're not the only one who's noticed that too much of on flavor spoils the meal. I'm not a big magic guy, so my stuff might invoke magic but revolves around people. It doesn't matter if someone's awesome new security system was bypassed by groovy tech, a neat spell, or somebody using chewing gum and a pocket mirror ... what matters is that the security system was defeated and that now somebody has a Thing that you've been hired to track down and bring back.
Anytime I can bring things down to Earth, I'm gonna try. :)
There're a ton of freelancers now (Around 40, I think?), each of which has their own vision and desires, some of which are more magically-inclined than others, ome of which are more technical than others, some hate Elves, some love Elves, and, in general, everyone's at their best when something really catches their imagination. Keep an eye out, see what books are announced and what things are on the way, and if you feel like something's missing, feel free to say so! Helps figure out where issues are to be addressed.
One of the things I dig about PDFs, and keep in mind, I'm very much a books kind of guy, is that they allow a focus on some small segment that would never stand on its own. Let's say that I wanted to do a book on the "Black Box", a Mitsuhama Computer Technologies arcology in Philadelphia. Maps, details of the floors, information about the people who run the thing and stuff it makes, how it's effected the local community, etc etc etc. It trips my trigger, and there are some arcology-lovers in the Shadowrun fandom, as well as sociology people, but let's be honest, how many copies of this book would sell in normal release? Enough to recoup printing costs? Unlikely. As a PDF, however, it can be made for a much smaller sum, allowing it to break even with a fraction of the sales, which gives it a chance for life. I'd have to write up a proposal and float it upstairs, they'd try and gauge if there's support for it and if it would fit into the product line, and we'd talk about it from there.
I'm rambling.
Hushing up now. :)
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In other words, "Tuesday" for some shadow teams. ;)
Some?
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Captain Chaos hacked Z-O when he was tracing the source of the transcript of the two mages talking in Cybertechnology about cybermancy, he made it through Z-O twice before finally hitting an iceberg.
Anyway, never underestimate the military to maintain nothing more than a veneer of security over their toys (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/dec/17/skygrabber-software-drones-hacked).
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The Lofwyr-Hestaby mate match was proposed in the fiction piece at the end of Survival of the Fittest. FYI.
I seem to remember that book. That was where Hestaby noted that thanks to the modern world's communications systems, namely the Matrix, the dragons felt that they had lost their "personal space". Which was triggering all this aggression... may need to reread that book, thanks for bringing it up.
Hmm...
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Crazy idea that came to me under the shower (cliché, I know): what if Aina's spirit had somehow merged with Zebulon? That would explain the "fractured personality" thing.
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!!
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Crazy idea that came to me under the shower (cliché, I know): what if Aina's spirit had somehow merged with Zebulon? That would explain the "fractured personality" thing.
I always thought it was because Zebulon had infant been split not a number of pieces, as outlined in the original Denver box set. One of those fragments was a racist policlub leader known as glennis shard. Real nasty piece of work, mostl likely a shadow spirit. She even lead a policlub called unity.
Now that Zebulon is reunited into one being, she my still be dealing itch the fallout of a these strong personalities merging together.
On a side note, the spirit of Denver shattered and then Denver was divided ino zones... Now that she is reunited, will Denver also reunite?
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/shrugs
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Crazy idea that came to me under the shower (cliché, I know): what if Aina's spirit had somehow merged with Zebulon? That would explain the "fractured personality" thing.
*snip*
On a side note, the spirit of Denver shattered and then Denver was divided into zones... Now that she is reunited, will Denver also reunite?
Love that idea Marzhin. :) And I dont think so Black. That seems to be one of Denver's main draws (it's diversity and divided nations in one spot).
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Well, to compensate for some glibness I should quote this relevant statement.
At the moment, his people aren’t rebelling against the new strictures. Instead, they are increasingly developing a bunker mentality, acting as if it’s Denver against the world. And Ghostwalker is their leader in this fight, so they’re not resisting his new orders.
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Well, to compensate for some glibness I should quote this relevant statement.
At the moment, his people aren’t rebelling against the new strictures. Instead, they are increasingly developing a bunker mentality, acting as if it’s Denver against the world. And Ghostwalker is their leader in this fight, so they’re not resisting his new orders.
Perhaps we'll get to see a Denver Free City-State. I doubt the constituent countries would be willing to commit troops to stop a rebellion, with so many irons in their fires already. The Azzies might see it as a moment of weakness though
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"Though the assistance of our good friends in Aztlan, we, the Free City of Denver..."
Spirits, that just scares the living hell out of me!
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Aw for the love of (insert the funniest name you can think of)_________!!!,
I'm trying very hard not to get my early game mixed up in meta-plots but damn it all, you guys are making it difficult. The creative juices are simmering very close to a boil here....... :o
wolfrider66
"Make your own luck."
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Shadowrun has always been the future of Earthdawn. Or at least, Earthdawn has always been the past of Shadowrun. From the earliest days of Shadowrun, you've seen a rising tide of magic, because the cycle is getting stronger. It is this depth of history and the SOTA of technology struggling to keep up with the rising magic levels that separates Shadowrun from the multitude of other cyberpunk games out there. There are times when Shadowrun focuses more heavily on the magic side of things, but there are times when they focus on the tech side of things, too. Surely you can't say that Shutdown, Brainscan, and System Failure weren't tech-heavy plot arcs, yes? Likewise, Survival of the Fittest and the Dragon Civil War are magic-centric plots. If you dislike the magic portion of Shadowrun, then Paranoia XP is right over there.
What we're seeing now is the culmination of threads that have been woven together since before Dunkelzhan died. In the grand schemes of dragons, the true master's plots continue to ensnare even his peers, twenty years after his death. Likewise, many of the other magic-centric plots have been building for some time. The Ares-bug connection has been game lore since Threats 2, for instance. The Az/Am war is just a continuation of the struggles those two countries have had for years, as the Amazonian Awakened try to prevent their jungles from being Corrupted by the Azzies.
This is not Shadowrun becoming Earthdawn's future, it is building a world with depth and history, the likes of which is worlds apart from any other cyberpunk game out there.
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I wondered how long it would take someone to suggest I play a different game because their idea of SR and mine don't match up.
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Crazy idea that came to me under the shower (cliché, I know): what if Aina's spirit had somehow merged with Zebulon? That would explain the "fractured personality" thing.
I always thought it was because Zebulon had infant been split not a number of pieces, as outlined in the original Denver box set. One of those fragments was a racist policlub leader known as glennis shard. Real nasty piece of work, mostl likely a shadow spirit. She even lead a policlub called unity.
Now that Zebulon is reunited into one being, she my still be dealing itch the fallout of a these strong personalities merging together.
On a side note, the spirit of Denver shattered and then Denver was divided ino zones... Now that she is reunited, will Denver also reunite?
Shad, not Shard, IIRC. However, a few other points ...
According to other more-or-less authoritave posts here, Zebulon was recombined with the spirit of Ghostwalker's old mate. It's dealing with that, combined with the problems you name of reintegrating diverse personalities from the split, that is part of what's going on with Zebulon now.
However, whatever makes you think Denver isn't reunited on the mystic level already? When Ghostwalker seized power, he also hunted down Zebulon's fragments. (Anyone not actually see that when they read it?) He kicked Aztlan out for diverse reasons, and then basically put Denver back together on both the political and mystic levels. Sure, the current 'us against the world' is solidifying that idea in hearts and minds, but it started when he took control and kicked Aztlan out ...
There are other things happening with Aina.
I wondered how long it would take someone to suggest I play a different game because their idea of SR and mine don't match up.
Well, it's tough to appreciate what you say when you throw it out there so ... pugnaciously. And then get all snarky about the backlash you incite.
That said, well - Mirikon is essentially correct. In-game events since 2057 have been driven by politics, by crime, and especially by technology. It was inevitable that magic was going to roll back around and take center-stage for a while. It's too bad you don't like it - but a) plenty of other people do, b) that's where the focus is at the moment, and c) you don't have to run your games that way. Feel free to keep voicing your opinion, though. Don't be surprised when your style gets a response, though.
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I wondered how long it would take someone to suggest I play a different game because their idea of SR and mine don't match up.
Well, it's tough to appreciate what you say when you throw it out there so ... pugnaciously. And then get all snarky about the backlash you incite.
That said, well - Mirikon is essentially correct. In-game events since 2057 have been driven by politics, by crime, and especially by technology. It was inevitable that magic was going to roll back around and take center-stage for a while. It's too bad you don't like it - but a) plenty of other people do, b) that's where the focus is at the moment, and c) you don't have to run your games that way. Feel free to keep voicing your opinion, though. Don't be surprised when your style gets a response, though.
Consider that the other Cyberpunk game out there, Cyberpunk, had a 100% technological progression...and ended up so strange that it did not even resemble Cyberpunk anymore. Heck, hacking is not even a part of the rules in the most recent version(or, at least, that I could see). Shadowrun, at least, tries to keep the Cyberpunk side of things going. Frankly, what bothers me more is that it is a Demo Agent speaking badly about the game's progression. Aren't they the people who are
supposed to trying to persuade new people to join? I know that, now, if I ever knew he was the Agent running something at a Con, I would NOT play at his table, because he hates my types of characters(He hates the magical storylines, so he obviously hates magic users, and I like magic characters). I would question his objectivity as a GM were I to bring the types of characters I like to play.
Frankly, you can run Shadowrun without any of the Earthdawn tie ins..filling in blanks from your own imagination. Some of us(myself included) know very little about Earthdawn. The easter eggs in the stuff with the Dragons and Immortal Elves is
always something neat. However, I really do not think one needs to emphasize those past connections. I mean, the discussions
here about the Earthdawn forms of these Dragons fascinated me, because it was another layer. However, you could easily create your own Fourth World History for the Greats using what little we know of them at present. The Great Dragons are as much a part of Shadowrun as Elf Riggers and Dwarf Shamans and Ork Mafiosi and Cybered Trolls shooting huge arse guns.
If you do not want Elves, Dwarves, Orks, Trolls, Dragons, etc, then perhaps Shadowrun really is not the game world for you.
If you don't want magic, and only want people to play cybered up characters, then Shadowrun DEFINATELY is not the game
world for you.
The system, though, is actually flexible. I have used it to do high fantasy, and even modern day stuff and Space Opera(Heck,
it works surprisingly well for Star Wars)....but the WORLD is something that is what it is. Get used to it being the way it is,
or have fun with another setting. But...Shadowrun is not Shadowrun without the magic that defines the setting from
Eclipse Phase or Cyberpunk 2020.
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Mara, I don't think lurker was talking down shadowrun so much as expressing a view point on the current magic/awakening type plot lines.
That said, such discussion is likely to trigger all sorts of replies which have nothing to do with clutch of dragons...
Maybe we should have a discussion topic about what types of plots we want focused on in the future?
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Sorry, Black, but on a second reading, 'I hate dragons and magic in Shadowrun' is more-or-less how it comes across. Sure, Lurker is writing submissions and/or whatever; it's clear he likes the game, otherwise a) he wouldn't be a demo agent, b) he wouldn't be on the boards, and c) he wouldn't be writing (or trying to write) for the game. But the way he writes here on the boards is argumentative, offensive in the extreme, and when he's called on it as Mirikon did above, he gets shirty, as if he is the one who ought to be offended.
If I was a new player instead of occasionally smiling at my 1E1P with all the fantabulous errors bought six months after they started the game, sure as hell I'd read that as 'this game is turning to shit, I don't know why the hell I'm still here, you newbies get out while you can and go find something interesting to play'.
As a particular response to his complaint, though - about Thor shots being unilaterally taken off the table by the Corporate Court, and about that being 'a world-changing event' - my response (besides 'Thor shots have been hackable for years') is also 'what, you actually think this was something they went and took out a full-page ad in the New York Times to announce?' This would have been ordered and those orders sent to select individuals. It wouldn't have been word on the street. To boot, I really don't think it's a world-changing event. 'Oh no, we and the surrounding nine city blocks can no longer be blown up from orbit!' is not something the man on the street, or the runner on the street, generally needs to concern themselves with. Or does concern themselves with. Except for, you know, that paranoid schizophrenic who lives in a car and rants about satellite-generated Y-rays targetting his brain, which is why he wears the tin-foil hat ...
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Sorry, Black, but on a second reading, 'I hate dragons and magic in Shadowrun' is more-or-less how it comes across. Sure, Lurker is writing submissions and/or whatever; it's clear he likes the game, otherwise a) he wouldn't be a demo agent, b) he wouldn't be on the boards, and c) he wouldn't be writing (or trying to write) for the game. But the way he writes here on the boards is argumentative, offensive in the extreme, and when he's called on it as Mirikon did above, he gets shirty, as if he is the one who ought to be offended.
*sigh* I understand, and I knew Lurker would cope some heat for his post as soon as I saw it. Lurker can state and defend his opinion himself, his plenty capable. Likewise, Mirikon and other posters are entitled to their opinions as well. Personally, I probably fall somewhere in the middle, which means I'm plenty happy regardless of plot direction. Two of my favourite Shadowrun books are Dragons of the Sixth World and Survival of the Fittest. One day I will run SotF for my guys and it will be great way to end a campaign. So I don't mind the recent focus on the big lizards.
But I get that for some, their tolerance level of the antics of our mostly all powerful immortal dragon lords and other awakened topics might get a bit dull and they would prefer... something grittier or more technology focused or something. And that would be cool too. I think I'm not along in hopeing for a return of our 3 A.I.s... or maybe another war between the Yakuza and the Mafia, or a more human story about saving and redeeming a gang boss, or just something a bit different. Shadowrun is a pretty big world and there is lots if different styles, storylines etc.
Except for, you know, that paranoid schizophrenic who lives in a car and rants about satellite-generated Y-rays targetting his brain, which is why he wears the tin-foil hat ...
Hey! Plan 9 is a great guy/gal!
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Just occurred to me: something that would shake things up even more, and serve as a follow-up to CoD - a statement from Sirrurg intended as both an answer to Hestaby's UN address and an indictment of Aztlan, and probably more.
A shame such a thing would be (as far as we readers/players can tell) SO out of character for him. And that's ignoring the authentication issues that would exist.
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Honestly, from a tactical and strategic race-political standpoint, right now the only thing Sirrug and Alamais have to offer the draconic world is their deaths by draconic claws. :/ Dragons need to be seen by the Younger Races that yes, certain things against the Younger Races are not acceptable - but that the Younger Races do not have the authority to punish dragonkind.
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Just occurred to me: something that would shake things up even more, and serve as a follow-up to CoD - a statement from Sirrurg intended as both an answer to Hestaby's UN address and an indictment of Aztlan, and probably more.
A shame such a thing would be (as far as we readers/players can tell) SO out of character for him. And that's ignoring the authentication issues that would exist.
Yeah, Sirrug's not exactly a press release kind of guy.
(Though now I have a wonderful mental image of a press conference, with Sirrug wearing a suit, walking up to a podium to make a prepared statement, with a couple of lawyers behind him. He adjusts his glasses (He, of course, has reading glasses), thanks the press for attending, clears his throat, adjusts the mic, leans in ... and blasts the crowd with a breath of flame.
"Thank you."
He then walks away.)
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Thanks. Now I have one more reason to attend such meetings with dragons only over the matrix.
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Just occurred to me: something that would shake things up even more, and serve as a follow-up to CoD - a statement from Sirrurg intended as both an answer to Hestaby's UN address and an indictment of Aztlan, and probably more.
A shame such a thing would be (as far as we readers/players can tell) SO out of character for him. And that's ignoring the authentication issues that would exist.
I think he made a pretty clear statement when he killed a couple thousand people in Albuquerque.
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Consider that the other Cyberpunk game out there, Cyberpunk, had a 100% technological progression...and ended up so strange that it did not even resemble Cyberpunk anymore. Heck, hacking is not even a part of the rules in the most recent version(or, at least, that I could see). Shadowrun, at least, tries to keep the Cyberpunk side of things going. Frankly, what bothers me more is that it is a Demo Agent speaking badly about the game's progression. Aren't they the people who are
supposed to trying to persuade new people to join? I know that, now, if I ever knew he was the Agent running something at a Con, I would NOT play at his table, because he hates my types of characters(He hates the magical storylines, so he obviously hates magic users, and I like magic characters). I would question his objectivity as a GM were I to bring the types of characters I like to play.
I am always bemused why my CDT Agent status is such a lightning rod for some people, you too can be a CDT agent, all you have to be willing to do is give of your time to run Shadowrun for others at public venues. That doesn't for some reason invalidate my essential right as a customer to be non plus-ed with the way things are going either in a book or the line. As a freelancer, or more apt a would be freelancer I have been asked to mostly keep my opinions somewhat low key. Which for the record I mostly do, even if people don't agree with them when I do voice them. If they choose to read further into my opinions then is really intended or get bent out of shape over the that is not my problem. While there is the possibility I might need to communicate better on the balance it's a big bag of not my problem. If my freelancer status, or my CDT status were tomorrow made contingent of withholding my positions entirely I would with regret wash my hands of both. Because quite frankly I'm an opinionated guy, I made a decisions long ago, in regards to issues of far more serious import then this, that only I had the moral authority to constrain my voice.
But I will clarify, my issue is not with magic or even magic related plots. My issue is rather then being a game about magics return to the world and how that affected things coupled with the world own accelerating level of high tech development. But ultimately to me at least Shadowrun is a game about Shadowrunners and the shadows they dwell in people operating on the fringes of this wonderful dystopic or post dystopic future world. That's not to say that Dragon's and their machinations shouldn't be a part of that or even that Earthdawn elements can't cross over. What I do have issue with is this concept that dragons or dragon affected people are the only ones that can move the plot. That the only way to affect the world is to be bequeathed something in a dragons will or be someone around from the fourth age. I don't have a problem with magic, dragons, or anything else. I have issues with beings not being subtle. I have issues with Dragons not having to hide their hand a bit. That's what the current plot lacks, draconic subtlety. Because honestly draconic magic and raw dragon physicality shouldn't be as big of an ace as people play it out to be, and by now the nations of the world should have draconic counters under lock and key ready to go even if that method is "Glass the area with stand off munitions".
Basically long story short probably be actually a bit scared of the younger races, sure individually they are more powerful and magically they are pretty pants but there are just so damn many of these soft squishy meta-humans, and even more of their toys. There's this conceit that the only thing humanity has to combat dragons is the magic bullet manatech of the week or spawm in armor with guns, when literally that doesn't even scratch the surface of literally awe inspiring destructive power we can project even today with conventional arms.
TLDR: I believe if you get into a stand up fight with a AA or above mega, or especially a AAA mega you probably aught to be vaporized. The same goes if your a runner team or a multi-ton fire breathing lizard, and I'm a little disappointed that so many of the plots right now involve fourth world hold overs, as if no one born in the sixth world can do anything without an immortal elf or a dragon secretly being behind it.
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Just because CMPunk's been defending his belt for months, don't think that other guys have given up hope of winning the battle royal. Sometimes, it's a matter of waiting for the right time.
Lots of things still to come on the Civil War, I'd think.
If nothing else, you have to wonder what getting support from a fellow dragon costs. What's Masaru getting for standing beside Hestaby, for instance? Is Arleesh using Lofwyr to get close to Lung? What price is Aden going to pull from Lofwyr? What will Ghostwalker charge for joining one side or the other?
Most importantly, how will this effect Shadowrunners?
I'm anxiously looking forward. :)
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:SNIP:
Basically long story short probably be actually a bit scared of the younger races, sure individually they are more powerful and magically they are pretty pants but there are just so damn many of these soft squishy meta-humans, and even more of their toys. There's this conceit that the only thing humanity has to combat dragons is the magic bullet manatech of the week or spawm in armor with guns, when literally that doesn't even scratch the surface of literally awe inspiring destructive power we can project even today with conventional arms.
:SNIP:
I Completly agree with you on this one. And have stated that very thing here before. There just aren't enough Dragons greats/lessers/dracoforms/drakes to survive if humanity decided to snuff them all because they finally pushed too hard.
And that's why Sirrug has to die. And die by a consolidated front of the other greats.
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What I do have issue with is this concept that dragons or dragon affected people are the only ones that can move the plot. That the only way to affect the world is to be bequethed something in a dragons will or be someone around from the fourth age. I don't have a problem with magic, dragons, or anything else. I have issues with beings not being subtle. I have issues with Dragons not having to hide their hand a bit. That's what the current plot lacks, draconic subtlety. Because honestly draconic magic and raw dragon physicality shouldn't be as big of an ace as people play it out to be, and by now the nations of the world should have draconic counters under lock and key ready to go even if that method is "Glass the area with stand off munitions".
<clip>
TLDR: I believe if you get into a stand up fight with a AA or above mega, or especially a AAA mega you probably aught to be vaporized. The same goes if your a runner team or a multi-ton fire breathing lizard, and I'm a little disappointed that so many of the plots right now involve fourth world hold overs, as if no one born in the sixth world can do anything without an immortal elf or a dragon secretly being behind it.
And this is basically correct. However.
A draconic attack - especially if you're talking about a Great - can take place, start to finish, in a couple of hours, perhaps only in minutes. Most of your anti-dragon options take that most valuable of things, time, to implement - not only because of the wrangling of and for authorization, but also for the simple mathematical and physical facts of 'It takes X item Y time to make it from point A to point B before it can execute a terminal attack maneuver on Target Q.' Do Thor shots have that problem? No, but Thor shots have a different issue implied.
It is implied that authorization for something like a Thor strike is under Corporate Court jurisdiction - which means that letting one loose without it could/would endanger your very existence as a corporation. Each member of the corporate court is going to act in their corporation's best interests; taking Danchekker out (the only use of a Thor shot that I know about) was in every corporation's interests. Using a Thor strike to take out a Great Dragon committing a military strike against the people who executed (possibly falsely) one of the highly limited population of his people is going to run into a large number of blocks, the first one being that one big corporation with the Great Dragon at the helm - and the other ones being every megacorp who has a beef with Aztechnology. (Remember that the genetic-predisposition spell came only at the very end of Sirrurg's hours-long attack.) Could Aztlan have nuked him before that? Yes, but you're also talking about a) using a weapon with questionable efficacy and b) killing a HELL of a lot of your own people to get him, which would NOT have played well. Sirrurg should have left well enough alone with the military base.
Anyhow. Take these things along with the fact that a) dragons tend to stick together against metahuman 'jurisdiction' (witness the current morass), and b) THE largest corporation is run by the de facto chief dragon, and c) that plenty of other corporate might is, with or without metahuman knowledge, leashed to dragons and their interests, what do you have? You have a small group of personally, economically, militarily, and politically powerful individuals willing to work together if, all of a sudden, the world wants to go to war with them.
Yes, they're having internal issues right now; yes, a lot of their typical subtlety has gone by the wayside as they are facing off with each other in displays of magic, might, and influence. Yes, you don't like that that's true, but that's what happen when the fecal matter strikes the spinning turbine; shit goes everywhere. But see, draconic magic and raw dragon physicality are not the only pieces on the board. They may be the only pieces you're paying attention to, but that doesn't make the other pieces go away.
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Oh yes, there's a *ton* of politics that can be involved (And you're right about the CC authorizing the deployment of space-based weaponry. I'm not sure if it's a simple majority or a two-thirds majority, but if it isn't authorized, you have bigger problems than a dragon chewing on your building.) ... Aztechnology isn't exactly a beloved company, and if there's a chance for them to get egged and other corps to make money, they don't really have a problem going, "Gosh. A dragon you say? Set fire to a city? Tha's one terrble internal affair you have there. Our condolances." *snicker snicker*
It''s certainly harder when the three largest megas (S-K, NeoNET, MCT) have dragons in positions of power, while several others might. As long as Lofwyr wants to keep dragons above mortal issues, they'll vote against CC operation. That makes it an internal affair and hard to handle while there's a war on. Worse, Aztlan has two hostile neighbors in the north (PCC and CAS), and Sirrug has actively attacked both of them, daring them to invade Aztlan to get revenge. That keeps Aztlan troops having to shore up the borders, just in case, too.
Not a happy nation right now, I can tell you. :)
Of course, they've also been working on anti-dragon weaponry, which may, or may not, work. If they can't keep their target in one area long enough to use it, however, it does them no good. Thanks to Hestaby's heads-up, I'd lay good odds that any such weapon they have is currently in Tenochitlan, to keep the board members safe. That Sirrug hasn't attacked there, directly into the jaws of Aztechnology, should tell you that if he doesn't *fear* them, he at least understands that, in a confrontation, they could hurt him badly, even kill him, so he has to strengthen his side and weaken theirs.
How much do you want to bet that there are several Mr Johnsons out there who are hiring for runners to go after the ever-hated Aztechnology corp? Has your local group's PCs been approached by a gorgeous Brazillian woman who'd love to have them engage in datasteals and monkeywrenching, and provides a Neo-Nuatl linguasoft as a bonus? Because if not, you're not using this situation to your benefit. The big plot arcs are there to give your games cool stuff to do! I'm okay with you sitting back, reading, and going, "Oh hey, neat, wonder what happens next?" but, man oh man, I really want you guys to sneak around, break in to a place, and sling some dice. That's where the fun is!
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Each member of the corporate court is going to act in their corporation's best interests; taking Danchekker out (the only use of a Thor shot that I know about) was in every corporation's interests.
Only use of a Thor shot against live targets that can be confirmed, yes. However, in House of the Sun, the court set off a ring of Thor shots around Hawaii as a demonstration of its displeasure that there was a revolt on. Also, it was heavily implied if not said outright that they used Thor as a warning shot across the bow of the US Pacific fleet when they steamed to try and stop Hawaii from seceeding during the Ghost Dance War. On top of a Hawaiian version of the Dance.
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- Is Zebulon Yuichotol, Ghostwalker's mate from the pre-Earthdawn era that was killed by the Therans? It sure reads that way (plus Yuichotol was rumoured to have remained as a spirit after her death).
Worth looking at SRM 02-18 (http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/SRM02-18A_A_Very_Bad_Day.pdf) for Yuichotol stuff...
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Hestaby is the greatest dragon magician.
That's Ghostwalker (Icewing) - I don't think he'd miraculously forget all he had known in the Age of Legends. In terms of raw magical power and skills, he was the top dog back then.
As for H's alliance with Azt, that's pretty much where I stopped reading. I doubt he'd forget what they've done, and what they represent. That, and the fact that H wasn't any part of the anti-dragon front among the IE's. I might have missed a few things along the way - I did not read any missions, or rulebooks for a long time.
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Well, Kot, people will do crazy things for love. As far as Harlequin is concerned, Aina died because of Ghostwalker, so Ghostwalker is going DOWN, no matter what he has to do in order to accomplish that. In my opinion, he's become fey and dangerous. He is willing to see the world burn in order to get his revenge.
As for Ghostwalker being the best dragon magician? We don't have Dollmaker's stats, but he is widely regarded as being the best with Spirits. As far as casting goes, Hestaby may very well be his equal or better. But Ghostwalker does have more experience than she does, to be sure, and is more physically powerful.
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Um . . . Doll-Maker IS Ghostwalker, actually.
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Yes I know that, Longshot. I was using the names interchangeably. And the 'She' I was referring to was obviously Hestaby, following the context of the conversation.
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Well, Icewing/Ghostwalker was a manipulative bastard back in the Age of Legends. I might not be so surprised if it was Dunkelzahn made him oversleep on purpose. Sibling rivalry aside, Big D was already a fan of Metahumanity way before the downtime.
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No, Ghostwalker didn't oversleep. While all the other dragons were sleeping, he was on a 5000 year metaplanar quest. Just what he was doing during all that time we STILL have no idea.
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^Does that scare you...? It should. 8)
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That still makes him the top wyrm. :P
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Well, Kot, people will do crazy things for love. As far as Harlequin is concerned, Aina died because of Ghostwalker, so Ghostwalker is going DOWN, no matter what he has to do in order to accomplish that. In my opinion, he's become fey and dangerous. He is willing to see the world burn in order to get his revenge.
Talking about people doing crazy things, are you sure you are also talking about eons old cold blooded motherfucker who had been manipulating whole nations just co have his fun? Sounds like bullshit to me.
All of sudden, he got mad and gave up everything he ever schemed for.
meh.
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Talking about people doing crazy things, are you sure you are also talking about eons old cold blooded motherfucker who had been manipulating whole nations just co have his fun? Sounds like bullshit to me.
All of sudden, he got mad and gave up everything he ever schemed for.
meh.
Thats always seemed kind of typical of Harlequin, really. He may be ancient and wise, but he's a creature of whim quite often. And his romance with Aina predates recorded history, so it's a level of heartbreak mere mortals can't even fathom.
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I guess Im getting too old for this :-\
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Like:
Aina died protecting people
She protected people from great blast
Great blast was produced by GW closing astral rift
(intermezzo: Rifft is possibly highst threat that came to public view. Produced Shedim btw)
Rift was caused by Dulkezahn comitting suicide to stop even greater threat...comming of Hororrs...pushing scourge fast forward possibly
This threat BigD was trying to stop was caused by who exactly?
now
BINGO
Ghostwalker is guilty for Aina`s sacrifice. Lets join the hands with Aytechnologz and walk towards the sweet revenge.
Thats more than "creature of whim" Id suspect...
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Kill two birds with one stone? As far as we know H could well be using AzT to strike at Ghostwalker while getting close to them and topple their leadership when he's done. If someone can do it, it's H.
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Well I do suspect him of manipulating AZT into the trap. Possibly even in the cooperation with GW. He is too loud to mean it serriously. Even if he wants to use smoking mirrorr...who knows what path he would like to show them...
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I must say, the idea of Harlequin and Ghostwalker actually putting up a show to con the Azzies is an interesting idea.
It sure beats one killing the other.
But I'm biased: I'm a big fan of both H and G...
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I must say, the idea of Harlequin and Ghostwalker actually putting up a show to con the Azzies is an interesting idea.
It sure beats one killing the other.
But I'm biased: I'm a big fan of both H and G...
This one I like.
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Ghostwalker is guilty for Aina`s sacrifice. Lets join the hands with Aytechnologz and walk towards the sweet revenge.
Thats more than "creature of whim" Id suspect...
See, the problem you're having is that you're approaching this concept as a rational being. Love is an inherently irrational emotion, pushing people to do things that they never would otherwise. Harlequin is working with a singular drive now, and is willing to do anything, and sacrifice anyone, in order to bring Ghostwalker down. He isn't thinking about things like "Azzie blood magic caused Big D to blow himself up to keep the Horrors from coming early". He's thinking "who has tools I can use to kill a Great Dragon and the will to risk getting a Great pissed at them"?
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Yes I know that, Longshot. I was using the names interchangeably. And the 'She' I was referring to was obviously Hestaby, following the context of the conversation.
Sorry, I mis-read your post.
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I'm pretty sure the CGL team is mining this thread for ideas, you know? :)
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*Shoulders my pick-ax* Hey, I'm working here! ;D
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I am tickled by the con idea. But there are hints that H doesn't know that Aina's still alive "somehow", which pushes that theory slightly towards implausible.
Unless GW is deliberately making H go after him, so that Aztechnology exposes its throat and he can gut them.
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I am tickled by the con idea. But there are hints that H doesn't know that Aina's still alive "somehow", which pushes that theory slightly towards implausible.
Unless GW is deliberately making H go after him, so that Aztechnology exposes its throat and he can gut them.
Ooh Harley getting conned as well? I like it
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Gotta get up pretty early in the morning to con Harley.
As in, not sleep for three days early.
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maybe so on the 3 days, though i doubt thats actually an issue for a dragon.
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Ghostwalker is guilty for Aina`s sacrifice. Lets join the hands with Aytechnologz and walk towards the sweet revenge.
Thats more than "creature of whim" Id suspect...
See, the problem you're having is that you're approaching this concept as a rational being. Love is an inherently irrational emotion, pushing people to do things that they never would otherwise. Harlequin is working with a singular drive now, and is willing to do anything, and sacrifice anyone, in order to bring Ghostwalker down. He isn't thinking about things like "Azzie blood magic caused Big D to blow himself up to keep the Horrors from coming early". He's thinking "who has tools I can use to kill a Great Dragon and the will to risk getting a Great pissed at them"?
I think you`ve missed the point. Dont talk aout that "love" emotion. Been there, done that. And even with my short lived experiences I would rather revenge to those who are really responsible, than to those who were just saving the world from consequences...
Sometimes I almost believe taht Aina and GW was cooperating in the the D.C. conclusion...
Maybe she is standing right next to Hatchetman at this moments...
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maybe so on the 3 days, though i doubt thats actually an issue for a dragon.
Maybe three cycles?
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/not-so-silently munches on pita chips
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/now thats where those dragon clippings had landed...
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Ghostwalker is guilty for Aina`s sacrifice. Lets join the hands with Aytechnologz and walk towards the sweet revenge.
Thats more than "creature of whim" Id suspect...
See, the problem you're having is that you're approaching this concept as a rational being. Love is an inherently irrational emotion, pushing people to do things that they never would otherwise. Harlequin is working with a singular drive now, and is willing to do anything, and sacrifice anyone, in order to bring Ghostwalker down. He isn't thinking about things like "Azzie blood magic caused Big D to blow himself up to keep the Horrors from coming early". He's thinking "who has tools I can use to kill a Great Dragon and the will to risk getting a Great pissed at them"?
I think you`ve missed the point. Dont talk aout that "love" emotion. Been there, done that. And even with my short lived experiences I would rather revenge to those who are really responsible, than to those who were just saving the world from consequences...
Sometimes I almost believe taht Aina and GW was cooperating in the the D.C. conclusion...
Maybe she is standing right next to Hatchetman at this moments...
But that's the thing, Sichr, to Harlequin, Ghostwalker IS the one directly responsible for Aina's death. Ghostwalker brought them all there, with Aina's help. Ghostwalker used the artifacts to go through the Rift, and seal it behind him, without letting anyone know the consequences. Because of that, Aina died in the process of saving everyone's lives from what would have been a nuke-sized explosion. So as far as Harlequin is concerned, Ghostwalker is responsible for Aina's death. And he is willing to deal with any and everyone in order to get his revenge.
Well, not anyone. I don't think he's quite so far gone as to try and bring Horrors over in order to kill off Ghostwalker, but he will use any other powers available to him, for sure. Including Azzie blood magic, if that is what it takes. I don't think there is anything, short of Aina herself speaking to him, that will stop Harlequin from launching his crusade. The consequences of this will be dire and far reaching, no matter who wins in the end.
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Gotta get up pretty early in the morning to con Harley.
As in, not sleep for three days early.
Or be known for being manipulative of a race known for being very manipulative...
I mean what does GW lose if Harley allies with the Azzies and goes after him? He has all them free spirits to help and he can potentially force the Azzies to overreach. And what does it cost him to not correct H's belief that Aina's dead? Bupkis.
Hell, Ghostwalker may even try to bring her back on his own as a sort of reward for Harlequin after Aztlan/Aztechnology get knocked around.
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/not-so-silently munches on pita chips
I'll take some of that action. Here, have a non-alcoholic beverage....
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While it is certainly possible that Ghostwalker is using Harlequin to pull a long con on the Azzies, that honestly doesn't sound like his style.
My honest opinion? Ghostwalker's actions in DeeCee are the closest you'll ever get to seeing a Great Dragon being a fool for love, and leaping without looking at the consequences first. He was focused on healing Zebulon (shutting the Rift was just a convenient byproduct), and he really didn't care about what happened after that. But then, perhaps I'm just a romantic at heart.
Of course, now that things are in motion, he'll be putting plans in place to try and counter Harlequin and his Jester's Army. Which means that, even though he isn't running a con on them, he may still use their actions to take the Azzies down a few pegs. I'd look for Ghostwalker to try and take the offensive, starting with getting runners to disrupt this Jester's Army, and to act as go-betweens with other potential players, specifically the great dragons and immortal elves, but also the governments involved in Denver, and players in the underworld. Most directly, I'd expect him to get in contact with Amazonia and Horizon.
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Surviving a few Scourges and possibly tens of thousands of years and now all of sudden they all become frantic mindless idiots. The end is near.
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I think all of you have misinterpreted what's going on. On the other hand, the people who are most likely to know aren't talking. ;)
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Surviving a few Scourges and possibly tens of thousands of years and now all of sudden they all become frantic mindless idiots. The end is near.
Old age and experiencing a bit of hell on earth do not make individuals inherently more rational or mentally stable. In fact, things like that tend to build up over time, especially if you lose sight of things and become focused on a singular goal. That is true for anyone, not just immortal elves and dragons. Leading up to the events in DeeCee, hadn't we heard for a while that Ghostwalker had suddenly withdrawn from everything, like he was obsessed over something? And Harlequin was never exactly the picture of mental health. Like I said, rationally, there's no reason they should take things so far. But there are two emotions that can overwhelm the most rational mind, and make them do wholly irrational things: pride and love. Regardless of your feelings about them, you must admit that all the dragons and IEs have pride that would surpass arrogance, were it not for the fact that it is (mostly) warranted. Combine that with love, and the desire to restore/avenge a fallen mate, and you have a combination that can make people do great and terrible things. Just remember, there is no animal in the world so dangerous as one standing over the body of a fallen mate.
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Just remember, there is no animal in the world so dangerous as one standing over the body of a fallen mate.
QFT.
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I think all of you have misinterpreted what's going on. On the other hand, the people who are most likely to know aren't talking. ;)
It's still fun watching.
/drops a knife called "Lofwyr" and runs back behind the glass.
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Well, I've been doing some reading, and I'm pretty sure I know what the arguments up in the Lake Louise lair, what with the meetings between Ryan, Ghostwalker, and Dupree were about. Curiously enough, they - and Ryan's designs with the drakes - do still fit in with my proposal.
So yeah, James, I'm pretty sure I pulled yet another White IC on this one.
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I think all of you have misinterpreted what's going on. On the other hand, the people who are most likely to know aren't talking. ;)
It's still fun watching.
/drops a knife called "Lofwyr" and runs back behind the glass.
"Oh we know what's really going on, just checking that you guys knew..."
Con Roll: (2: 0,1) Failed
Ahem. I don't suppose a hint or three somewhere to the right direction would be possible?
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No.
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They probably have non-disclosure issues to keep them from spilling the beans. On top of the fact that they like to tease things worse than Laughing Man and Big D chatting on Shadowland.
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Yup, NDA signings keep people from blabbing.
That said, I'd love to have a "Director's Commentary" thing for books. Like, a year after it was published, a thing where the writers could post thing sto the forums, and go, "Okay, this thing here was a reference to this plot. This thing was a plotline for any GM to pick up on. This guy here was named after my cousin, while this other one was a girl I used to date. Oh! This part! Yeah, I love dthis part! I'd been doing a lot of reading about Thing the past month, and this happened to come up *right* when I was filled with useful info. Perfect timing!"
Stuff like that.
Until it hits shelves, though, saying anything can get pink slips, and nobody wants that. Heck, even when it hits shelves, there's some stuff that we shouldn't say. "Oh good, Awesome Book is out? Check out page blankity-blank! That's where I kick off this AWESOME plot that'll be running for the next three years. Cool huh?" D'oh. Fired.
The older something is, the safer it is to talk about. As time goes by and I learn more about what's going on, you might notice that my speculation has slowed down. Pretty soon, I won't be able to do it at all because, well, I chat people up all the time to try and stay current. Mixing up what's being written and what's been released is a quick way to blurt something and get your head whapped.
And I have a tender skull.
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They probably have non-disclosure issues to keep them from spilling the beans. On top of the fact that they like to tease things worse than Laughing Man and Big D chatting on Shadowland.
Funny you should specifically pick those two ... look into who Aina had been talking to, and when. I strongly suspect Aina knew ahead of time exactly what was going to happen, what she was doing, what she was getting into. Chuckles and the White Boy may have issues over this whole thing - and events up in AMC will become interesting - but I think Chuckles is going to get smacked by the Clue-By-Four before things can devolve into top-end deaths.
And then they'll have the inside knife and get to tear into what's going wrong down in the Heart of Darkness. With backup. And I suspect OQ will be standing there with Mike Rowe's expression, holding the shovel and realizing how deep a sewer hole she dug herself into...
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No.
Yeah, thought so. And I was not totally serious in asking by the by, I know about NDAs. ;)
Okay then, back to rampant mis-speculating!
And yes, Wak, that'd be awesome. I think it's been said that there's no "Shadowrun Bible" that keeps track of all the stuff that's been done or will be done. It'd be great to see a book that wraps up just what happens. But then, that kinda robs you of the experience as well.
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Until it hits shelves, though, saying anything can get pink slips, and nobody wants that. Heck, even when it hits shelves, there's some stuff that we shouldn't say. "Oh good, Awesome Book is out? Check out page blankity-blank! That's where I kick off this AWESOME plot that'll be running for the next three years. Cool huh?" D'oh. Fired.
First try to get out of the frontline alive, before thinking about telling veterans' stories.
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Actually, there is a Shadowrun Bible. It was released publicly to coincide with the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter, which is where you should be able to find it.
It's incomplete because it was originally written more than ten years ago, but it was updated for SRR, and it's still better than nothing.
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Actually, there is a Shadowrun Bible. It was released publicly to coincide with the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter, which is where you should be able to find it.
It's incomplete because it was originally written more than ten years ago, but it was updated for SRR, and it's still better than nothing.
Thanks much for this. Can't believe I missed that.
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Actually, there is a Shadowrun Bible. It was released publicly to coincide with the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter, which is where you should be able to find it.
It's incomplete because it was originally written more than ten years ago, but it was updated for SRR, and it's still better than nothing.
Where does one find it? Link or is it in print?
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Here ya go, chummer: http://harebrained-schemes.com/shadowrun/primer/
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Actually, there is a Shadowrun Bible. It was released publicly to coincide with the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter, which is where you should be able to find it.
It's incomplete because it was originally written more than ten years ago, but it was updated for SRR, and it's still better than nothing.
Where does one find it? Link or is it in print?
....
Here ya go, chummer: http://harebrained-schemes.com/shadowrun/primer/
damn you beat me on that :)
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I think it's been said that there's no "Shadowrun Bible" that keeps track of all the stuff that's been done or will be done.
There's nothing for what will be done, but we do have notes and documentation on what was done, and when we start plots we generally have an idea of where we think they should go, and some of us even write that down. There are several wikis for SR, too, which helps us a lot. One of these days in my copious unstructured free time, I need to get online and update several dozen entries....
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There's also the drunken parties, I found out at GenCon. ;D
No no no, it was all serious and sober and...
...
I'm sorry, I can't keep a straight face. I just can't. ;D
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The drunken parties would be fun. But it would also spoil some things for me.
Also, back to Fastjack. Got some horrible ideas about what's up with him, and where it might be heading. One horrible idea is that FJ is dead. And what we are getting is the shedem messing with Jackpoint. Of course, I'm not sure if Master Shedem can hijack memories, and Alzheimer's is probably the more likely story, but it would just be heart-breaking, and I'm a fan of that. Also, have we all forgotten Capt. Chaos? Too many hints for that plotline to just be a washout. Still, something BEYOND "Jack is getting old" is going on there. Heck, him getting winged by Psychotropic IC may have just been another symptom, not the cause.
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Even Master shedim would be subject to the rule that Spirits are unable to perceive AR or use anything with electronic control system.
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Even Master shedim would be subject to the rule that Spirits are unable to perceive AR or use anything with electronic control system.
Spirits with the inhabitation power can, I believe. Whether Shedim can or not is uncertain. Their ability is more than normal possession, but less than Inhabitation.
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We're certain that FastJack's not an AI or some sorta eghost right? Old age plus a life of decking will do that to you. Still, I get the feeling that this is Horizon-related.
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It's FastJack. Can you be certain of anything?
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Oh, I think so ...
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It's FastJack. Can you be certain of anything?
"Always bet on 'Jack."
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Even Master shedim would be subject to the rule that Spirits are unable to perceive AR or use anything with electronic control system.
Spirits with the inhabitation power can, I believe. Whether Shedim can or not is uncertain. Their ability is more than normal possession, but less than Inhabitation.
Nope, that rule apply for both, posession and inhabitation.
A spirit possessing or inhibiting a vessel can do anything
the vessel can do normally. A car vessel can drive and play the
radio, a toaster can make toast, and a dead body without legs can
pull itself along by its arms. By the same token, a gun or magic
lamp cannot move by itself. Spirits cannot perceive or use
aug-mented reality or the Matrix, nor can they understand and use
AR, cybernetic, or electronic controls or interfaces, including
most cyberware. A spirit possessing or inhibitinga vessel is a
dual-natured entity (see p. 294, SR4A), and, among other abilities,
the possessed or inhibited vessel gains the power of immunity to
normal weapons (see p. 295, SR4A).
I do not intent to be rule nazi, just to prove this lead false so we can look elsewhere :)
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We're certain that FastJack's not an AI or some sorta eghost right? Old age plus a life of decking will do that to you. Still, I get the feeling that this is Horizon-related.
Now that you say that...what if FastJack is ConsenusJack and he have fun all the time by making fools of us all :D
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However, Sichr, check the sidebar on page 100. Hybrids and flesh forms are able to use cyberware, including ones with a DNI.
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I thought that you cannot denny one thing on one page and then allow it on the next one...
until Ive read Shadowrun rules...
Good that I`ve studied sociology, not law. I`ve quetioned to ambivalence of human nature before. Still I don`t see the benefit from it. Lawyers, on the other side, do not understand this ambivalency, but benefit from it without even asking questions.
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I have to say, after rading the book, Harlequin is still my favorite character.
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YAY!
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I thought that you cannot denny one thing on one page and then allow it on the next one...
until Ive read Shadowrun rules...
Good that I`ve studied sociology, not law. I`ve quetioned to ambivalence of human nature before. Still I don`t see the benefit from it. Lawyers, on the other side, do not understand this ambivalency, but benefit from it without even asking questions.
Any rule system will have situations like that, Sichr. It is called the hierarchy of rules. Overall, specific rules > general rules. Meaning that there are some situations that exceptionally are able to do things that are generally not allowed under the rules. In D&D 3.5, an example of this would be a Warlock being able to take 10 on caster level checks, even in combat, or being allowed to substitute a Use Magic Device check for the spells required to craft items, things that few if any other classes are able to do. In that case, the Warlock's class abilities overrule the general rules that you cannot take 10 on caster level checks, and you must know the spell required in order to craft magic items.
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I have to say, after rading the book, Harlequin is still my favorite character.
Indeed... Also, I would love a sourcebook like "Harlequin Tells All".... Of course, it would have to be VERY abridged, otherwise it wouldn't fit through a standard sized door...
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I could see a time when some of the Dragons and Immortal Elves decide it is time to let everyone else in on the real scan about the way things work. Ehran is a likely choice for that, though Harlequin and Hestaby might, as well. Damon is a dark horse possibility, too. Ehran has already given hints with his books on mana cycles, and Harlequin might just get tired of this whole charade once he finishes his vendetta with Ghostwalker. Hestaby and Damon are the two dragons with the greatest ties to metahumanity, who might just overlook dragon politics in order to help metahumans get ready for the next Scourge.
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Does anyone think that Peri could do what he allegedly did without at least the tacit approval of GW and Zebulon?
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Yes. It would require another dragon running interference for only a few moments - and whaddaya know, Pobre. It would also rely on ... well, all the conditions that were present:
- The aforementioned Great Dragon having and being known for a massive temper;
- The GD being shocked, suddenly presented with the presence of people he deeply loathes;
- There being lots of people there the GD would not want to kill;
- The aforementioned interference-runner crazy enough to be willing to step between the GD and his nominal targets, giving him the moment or two of pause necessary for him to recognize #3;
- Both lesser dragons recognizing that what could go down would not be in the interests of either a) dragonkind in general or b) them or the GD in specific.
I also suspect, from what I've heard about Zebulon, that she would have been at Ghostwalker's shoulder, talking fast and convincing him to not react as per standard in bringing the hammer down on the AZT representatives.
.... oh, wow. That's nasty. Elegant, if it's what I think it is, but nasty. I'd have to get ... huh. I'd have to nail down the specific timeline for all of the events in Clutch to be sure, though.
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I thought that you cannot denny one thing on one page and then allow it on the next one...
until Ive read Shadowrun rules...
Good that I`ve studied sociology, not law. I`ve quetioned to ambivalence of human nature before. Still I don`t see the benefit from it. Lawyers, on the other side, do not understand this ambivalency, but benefit from it without even asking questions.
Any rule system will have situations like that, Sichr. It is called the hierarchy of rules. Overall, specific rules > general rules. Meaning that there are some situations that exceptionally are able to do things that are generally not allowed under the rules. In D&D 3.5, an example of this would be a Warlock being able to take 10 on caster level checks, even in combat, or being allowed to substitute a Use Magic Device check for the spells required to craft items, things that few if any other classes are able to do. In that case, the Warlock's class abilities overrule the general rules that you cannot take 10 on caster level checks, and you must know the spell required in order to craft magic items.
There is a word for it. Inconsistency. If allowing DNI would mean allowing FleshForms to acess AR/VR, that would be can of worms. It become apparent problem in case when flesh form hacker hit IC as black as outer space is...since there is no reason why flesh form should care of such things, because Black IC attacks should be considered Normal weapon attack. Thus, flesh form doesnt need to care. And lots of other bullshit, such as being always dual natured, that would mean the being is physicaly/astraly/VR perceiving in one time...or what supress what...Does DNI suppress dual nature of being? Or does dual nature suppress VR? Good thing that GM has the last word on this. but that is discusion for another thread...
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Does anyone think that Peri could do what he allegedly did without at least the tacit approval of GW and Zebulon?
Well... if he did do that with GW approval... then the whole scene takes a different light. GW gets to be big and nasty, but he doesn't actually do anything.. regrettable...
Also means that GW is a lot more cunning then his been given credit for by some people...
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Does anyone think that Peri could do what he allegedly did without at least the tacit approval of GW and Zebulon?
Well... if he did do that with GW approval... then the whole scene takes a different light. GW gets to be big and nasty, but he doesn't actually do anything.. regrettable...
Also means that GW is a lot more cunning then his been given credit for by some people...
All, isn't peri now with masura? If so, the defection takes a different light...
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People who underestimate a great dragon are what I like to call "morons". Always, always, ALWAYS expect them to have plans within plans within plans for every contingency, to the point that they make the combined intellects of Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor, Mr. Sinister, and Reed Richards look like a two-year old.
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too bad sourcebooks are created by poor humans :)
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People who underestimate a great dragon are what I like to call "morons". Always, always, ALWAYS expect them to have plans within plans within plans for every contingency, to the point that they make the combined intellects of Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor, Mr. Sinister, and Reed Richards look like a two-year old.
You forgot Xanatos....the only one for whom a plan FAILING was also a "Win"..just a lesser one.
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All, isn't peri now with masura? If so, the defection takes a different light...
Speculation is fun, but keep in mind that right now, no one knows anything about what happened, why it happened, or where Peri went.
i'm hoping to follow this up shortly in some Missions adventures though.
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All, isn't peri now with masura? If so, the defection takes a different light...
Speculation is fun, but keep in mind that right now, no one knows anything about what happened, why it happened, or where Peri went.
i'm hoping to follow this up shortly in some Missions adventures though.
Cool! Looking forward to it Bull. ;D
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I think all of you have misinterpreted what's going on. On the other hand, the people who are most likely to know aren't talking.
Oh jeeze I write one little story about Harlequin and ignore it for three months and I have like fifteen pages of stuff to respond to. : )
At least my ignorance of this thread's existence has been mistaken for temperance and self control! XD
IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER AT ALL! (AND FAR FROM ALL-INCLUSIVE)
RE: Thor shots being out of play.
As of late I've been trying very hard not to comment one way or another on a lot of SR work, because frankly I'm a bit close to some of the people involved and actually as of this writing have my own couple of bits of work that I'm frantically pounding on trying to get into shape.. That's not to say that all my comments would be negative, far from it, I've very much enjoyed some of the books that have come out lately. Having said that:
I'm already kind of hating Clutch of Dragons
Now i've always been kind of ambivalent on dragons as a plot device in part because they skew the setting so horribly towards the magic side of things. Frankly only in a world where firearms, fighter jets, tanks, and other assorted military hardware so inexplicably weak does the current plot sort of work.
*snip*
I keep trying to come up with a less caustic way to write this but the thought that keeps running through my head as I'm reading the book basically boils down to this. Some of you may realize this is not a new complaint for me, but it's never been this acute.:
I'm really kind of disappointed that at some point Shadowrun stopped being it's own game with it's own identity and became just the future of Earthdawn. I'm actually saddened that the technological side of the house the chrome, the matrix, the transhumanistic elements have all just become set pieces so we can do this draconic plot and the artifacts plot.
There I got that off my chest, i feel better.
You know, its weird finding someone else who is thinking the same things I am. You said exactly what I've been trying to put to words for a while now but couldn't. I always hate criticizing the companies I buy games from because it makes it seem like I don't appreciate their work. That's far from the case. I also know that not everyone will agree with me and my likes and dislikes. Not everyone can be or will be pleased by what Gaming Company A ads into their sourcebooks. Anyway, I just needed to add that here.
I just want to say, I wrote a bunch of content in Clutch of Dragons and a lot of the other Shadowrun products that came out in the last year plus, and I actually agree with much of what lurker said (although for various reasons I'd never phrase it as caustically). The unilateral "magic beats technology/magic always wins" theme in Shadowrun really bothers me, too, although I like to think that the disabling of Thor Shots actually has to do with an actual plot that goes much deeper than being just another iteration of that. While I did not write that plot, I am confident there is an in-universe reason for it that will unfold that doesn't even slightly resemble "so magic can win even harder".
As one of the people currently writing Shadowrun, I don't know or care about Earthdawn at all, except about the ways it connects to Shadowrun; I am certainly not trying to turn SR into an extension of Earthdawn. To me, in SR, the cyberpunk is the cake, and the magic stuff is just the icing.
I also really appreciate that you're specifying that what you're saying isn't that you don't appreciate my work; that is nice to hear.
Yeah, I have to say that the new face of Harlequin is damned interesting. I have no idea where he's going, but it's gonna be one Hell of a journey.
I have to say that (at least as far as "The Things We Do For Love" goes), the new face of Harlequin has more to do with how I have always interpreted the character than any deliberate change; of course the events of "Praxis" (by James Meiers) at the conclusion of Artifacts Unbound allowed for a substantial element of the latter to be introduced as well.
I have to say, after rading the book, Harlequin is still my favorite character.
Indeed... Also, I would love a sourcebook like "Harlequin Tells All".... Of course, it would have to be VERY abridged, otherwise it wouldn't fit through a standard sized door...
Thanks, he's my favorite character too. : )
2. Aden hates Lofwyr and Harlequin and its hinted they are enemies from before but forced into an alliance vs....The Big G
3. Ghostwalker is back. Harlequin is about to go to war with Ghostwalker.
5. Harlqeuin, Aztechnology(yes Harlequin is allying himself with these guys) vs. the Big G
So I was thinking... Next big campaign book: Harlequin's Revenge?
I always felt everyone's favorite painted elf should have a third book named after him :)
I agree, or more accurately, I wish. Nothing's impossible, though.
"if they do that, should have a picture of him chewing bubble gum, in the middle of a fight, where he is litterally kicking
someone in the arse, while wearing a t-shirt that says "They live!""
Reference appreciation score = 100%. Expect this to actually happen be snuck in a Shadowrun product coming soon near you. They Live is one of my favorite movies ever.
Well, to compensate for some glibness I should quote this relevant statement.
At the moment, his people aren’t rebelling against the new strictures. Instead, they are increasingly developing a bunker mentality, acting as if it’s Denver against the world. And Ghostwalker is their leader in this fight, so they’re not resisting his new orders.
At the moment of that writing, yeah. But a yoke that tight can be born only so long before the common man begins pushing back. Hard. : )
Kill two birds with one stone? As far as we know H could well be using AzT to strike at Ghostwalker while getting close to them and topple their leadership when he's done. If someone can do it, it's H.
I shouldn't comment too much on The Laughing Man's motivation when this issue will be explored (and then some) in upcoming SR products. However, I will say this; if you were to throw something at Ghostwalker to knock him off balance, it would make a lot of sense to have it be something you didn't particularly like. : )
Just remember, there is no animal in the world so dangerous as one standing over the body of a fallen mate.
<3
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In a separate post, because it's got nothing to do with anything else.
"because Black IC attacks should be considered Normal weapon attack"
I emphatically disagree. I also don't think that it's specified anywhere what is or is not a "Normal Weapon" which is kind of a blind spot in the 4A rules.