[Marcus]

About skill ratings, I have to think that you guys are choosing how you want to perceive it and not accepting that it is in the official book and it is exactly how skills work, these are the rules after all. If the core book defines skills like it does in that table, that's how they work.

Except it is how they are described, not how they work. How they work is that your effectiveness is based on a combination of your skill training plus your ability, limited by either physical attributes or equipment. If they were how skills worked, then we wouldn't include attributes or limits.

Again, it seems like you are refusing to accept the truth here. It doesn't matter how skills work in combination with attributes, the fact is that your skill rating represents how good you are a a skill, the attribute only enhances it. A stealth expert should never have rating 1 Sneaking, even if he has a very high agility. That is someone who is agile and not skilled at the fine points of stealth. You are trying to do what is convenient during character creation but not accepting the way things actually work.

You have yet to explain how this actually matters

I agree if you're going to say it's the truth repeatedly, then how does the skill matter more, when the total pool average is going to determine the regular outcome.

[Whiskeyjack]

About skill ratings, I have to think that you guys are choosing how you want to perceive it and not accepting that it is in the official book and it is exactly how skills work, these are the rules after all. If the core book defines skills like it does in that table, that's how they work.

Except it is how they are described, not how they work. How they work is that your effectiveness is based on a combination of your skill training plus your ability, limited by either physical attributes or equipment. If they were how skills worked, then we wouldn't include attributes or limits.

Again, it seems like you are refusing to accept the truth here. It doesn't matter how skills work in combination with attributes, the fact is that your skill rating represents how good you are a a skill, the attribute only enhances it. A stealth expert should never have rating 1 Sneaking, even if he has a very high agility. That is someone who is agile and not skilled at the fine points of stealth. You are trying to do what is convenient during character creation but not accepting the way things actually work.

You have yet to explain how this actually matters

I agree if you're going to say it's the truth repeatedly, then how does the skill matter more, when the total pool average is going to determine the regular outcome.

It seems to me that he's saying "the skill rating is the important part, on a narrative level, as this description narratively assesses a scale of professional-level facility with doing things covered by the skill."

But that ignores the fact that, in actual gameplay, it's solely the total dice pool that is outcome-determinative. Which, in the end, to me, seems like a large degree of quibbling over something with no practical effect.

Maybe this is just a mindset difference.

However, there's an explicit negative comment in the whole "You are trying to do what is convenient during character creation but not accepting the way things actually work" line, meaning, "the narrative says X, and you're doing Y because it's more mathematically beneficial, and in doing so, you are Doing It Wrong."

Yes, a professional B&E guy is probably well served with a Sneaking skill of 6, a relevant spec, and high AGI, to generate the highest possible dice pool. I'm just not sure how the player of a street samurai, whose main focus is gunning people down, but who still wants to be able to be a little unobtrusive, takes a 1 and relies on his cultivated (and implanted) Agility to carry him through, is doing things wrong? Because he won't be as good as the B&E expert (dice-pool wise) but he won't be THAT far behind, and can still sneak pretty well as the situation calls for it.

[Darzil]

The closest I've come to understanding Shadowjack's view, in a way that makes more sense to me, is :

Skill represents what you have been taught and found out about how to do something, that you have learned from. It is liable to be represented by qualifications and training you have done, and thus how respected you are for it.

However, that only really represents part of the picture on how you cope with novel or pressurised situations where failure matters (ie where you roll dice). In those situations, other attributes come into play, modified by devices that help and limited by the tools at hand.

I can relate to that to a certain extent, though in the real world I find that the equivalent of the dice pool rolls, your actual achievements, is what matters, once you get past trivial situations. You need the qualifications (or contacts) to get hired, once hired it is ability to succeed that counts, not qualifications.

[Jack_Spade]

I have a very hard time imagining a shadow runner who has to show certificates to a Johnson 

But leaving this aside: There are lots of explanations for low skill values you compensate with high attributes:
First and foremost, you might just have been lazy at school, but thanks to your innate talent you just got by with learning only the bare minimum necessary. Even in formal educations its the results of your tests that determine if you are considered a professional or not.

Or you just faked a lot and got lucky (used edge). 

[Herr Brackhaus]

I have a very hard time imagining a shadow runner who has to show certificates to a Johnson 

I'm totally stealing that idea.

Mr. Johnson: "Well, your team comes highly recommended, but I need a certified EMT, a matrix security expert with a network and communications degree, and lastly, a bonded bounty hunter. Oh, and everyone should have legal licenses for all gear."
Face: "Uh, what?"
Mr. Johnson: "Oh, I forgot to tell you, didn't I. This isn't a... what do you people call it again... ah, yes. "Shadowrun". No, this is a legitimate retrieval of an escaped inmate. Under no circumstance should you break the law."

[Marcus]

I have a very hard time imagining a shadow runner who has to show certificates to a Johnson 

I'm totally stealing that idea.

Mr. Johnson: "Well, your team comes highly recommended, but I need a certified EMT, a matrix security expert with a network and communications degree, and lastly, a bonded bounty hunter. Oh, and everyone should have legal licenses for all gear."
Face: "Uh, what?"
Mr. Johnson: "Oh, I forgot to tell you, didn't I. This isn't a... what do you people call it again... ah, yes. "Shadowrun". No, this is a legitimate retrieval of an escaped inmate. Under no circumstance should you break the law."

LOL, it would certainly be a change of pace at the table.

[Whiskeyjack]

Don't Js usually provide that kind of licensing resources if thats how they want the run to go? That's been my experience

And yeah those have been fun runs!

[gradivus]

As far as skill vs attribute...
SR should not have bothered with defining the skills since the mechanics they have chosen to use doesn't support the definitions.

It is an irrefutable fact that Pistols 0 and AGI 6  Pistol 3 and AGI 3 gives the same DP as Pistols 5 and AGI 1. And all the various combination that give you a 6 DP. (Thanks A4BG)

In real life having a high AGI ha nothing to do with having an aptitude for shooting- otherwise every professional figure skater ever is going to be a decent shot.. and we all know that cannot hold true.

DND doesn't give artificial names to the ranks in a skill. If you have 5 ranks plus you attribute modifier is +5, it's simply a +10 to a d20 roll. Same as 8 ranks plus 2 modifier is a +10. Mechanically it's the +10 that matters.

Same holds true in SR, a DP of 12 is a DP of 12 and are mechanically equal no matter how you got to it.

The problem of trying to view the skill in isolation to the DP is the way Character Generation and Character advancement work. The highest possible starting skill is 8 (and only with life modules and having picked the Aptitude quality) but realistically, most builds are capped at 6 plus a specialization. However, starting attributes can be double digits. The way that karma is earned and the expense in raising skills beyond 6 means you don't see many players with double digit skills. It's hard justifying spending 50 Karma on one skill when you character has skill holes that need to be filled (and most characters do have skill holes). The system is purposely built this way to encourage diversification after character generation.

The system also mechanically rewards you for grouping sil points. I guess it's nice t have 6 skills at rank 1 but that's 12 Karma that I have to earn to buy those skills later. Having those 6 skills grouped into one sklll doesn't just get you a higher DP but to buy a skill post chargen is 42 points...that's a 30 karma or on avg 6 run difference.

Regardless that the system encourages a narrow focus in Priority, a player is that wishes to spread out can do so. And regardless of the fact that post chargen the system encourages diversification, a player is free to save up every bit of karma and put it into one skill to he reaches the mythic 12-13.

And yet not one of the above things has any to do with roleplaying.
Should you roleplay your skill level- I don't see the point, but that's me. If you want to, go ahead.
Should you roleplay your attribute level- I would, but agains that's me.  Do as you please.
Should you roleplay the thematic e,ements of your background/concept-absolutely IMHO. YMMV.

Does taking 8 skills at 3 make you a good roleplayer... absolutely not, has nothing to do with it. About the only thing we can claim about this in isolation is you're not optimizing. Does taking 4 skills at 6|+3 with the applicable attribute capped/softcapped and augmented make you a bad roleplayer... absolutely not, has nothing to do with it. About the only thing we can say about this in isolation is your optimizing.

[All4BigGuns]

It is an irrefutable fact that Pistols 0 and AGI 6 gives the same DP as Pistols 5 and AGI 1.
And all the various combination that give you a 6 DP.

You are incorrect here. Pistols 0 and Agility 6 gives you a dice pool of 5. You're defaulting, so you suffer a -1.

[gradivus]

yes, well 1+5 vs 5+ 1 then

quibble quibble

but it is amusing to be irrefutably refuted.

[All4BigGuns]

Either way, combat skills and decking skills need higher dice pools for those roles since the tests to resist tend to be higher.

For Sneaking or social skills 12 dice may just suffice, the same for stuff like Locksmithing (opposed by a roll involving the lock's rating), but the 'defense' tends to be lower for those than for combat or hacking.

Example: If you're only sitting at 12 dice to shoot a pistol or SMG, there's a good chance that you'll only be 2 dice ahead of the opponent's defense test, thus having 16 dice as a combat specialist will very much be preferred to have a decent chance of success.

[gradivus]

<snip>

Example: If you're only sitting at 12 dice to shoot a pistol or SMG, there's a good chance that you'll only be 2 dice ahead of the opponent's defense test, thus having 16 dice as a combat specialist will very much be preferred to have a decent chance of success.

Depends on other factors, your a troll with AGI4, Automatics 6 and Smartlink you have a DP of 12. The avg Yak NPC from CRB sits at 12DP on Full defense. If the troll has enough STR and other recoil to fire FA the Yak's defense drops to 7 or even 2 if you spray 9 bullets... A troll with 7 STR (nothing spectacular for a troll) and vent 3 on a SMG is sitting on RC 7 so that's DP 9 to DP 2, more than enough. Using SS or SA shots, yeah, 12 DP is not high enough.

Which is why I prefer weapons that fire in BF/FA modes..can mitigate for the DP deficiency.

[All4BigGuns]

Better to actually have a good dice pool as a combat specialist than to rely on full-auto, which is basically a waste of ammunition. Not to mention that I just can't justify someone with a non-military background being trained in Automatics or for those with that background to not be trained in Pistols and Longarms as well.

[gradivus]

I live in Alabama now- I can attest to the fact that there are plenty of people down here with no military experience that go to the range and practice with burst firing weapons... and a lesser amount with full automatics.

[All4BigGuns]

That is purely anecdotal. I'm not questioning you're integrity, but such "evidence" can't be considered because one can say whatever they want in those situations, true or not.

Still better to actually have a good dice pool rather than rely on such a heavy ammunition consumption option.