Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Black on <10-25-12/0451:57>
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Hi All, this is just my notes from the first chaper of Clucth of Dragons. I have, but have not read, all the 4th ed setting books, so maybe I am missing knowledge. But I thought I would share my notes and questions on the first chapter:
Questions / Notes from Clutch of Dragons …War at 10,000 meters
“forty of Humanis’ and Alamos 20K’s chapterhouses in Seattle, Los Angeles, London, DeeCee, Paris, Frankfurt, Moscow, and Miami have been attacked.”
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Ok, Humanis is a legal organisation, but Alamos 20k is a terrorist organisation. I suspect that they do not have ‘chapterhouses’… maybe safehouses, or cells?
“Since this confl ict has started heating up, nearly eighty alleged members of Human Nation have been identified,
many of whom are in positions of power. The biggest names so far have been UCAS Secretary of the Treasury Brenda Ogawa, CAS Vice President Lowery Grimes, Mitsuhama shareholder Shin Yuruyasu, and Wuxing shareholder James Harper-Smythe. And I’m certain more will be identified as Human Nation conspirators as time goes on and as these groups continue to dig.”
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Ok, what is the actual status of Human Nation in 2072? Once they were a chapter in a Threats book, a rumoured organisation, the illuminati of racist terror groups. Now they are an actual ‘thing’? And if so, what’s their legal status? Surely, regardless of legal status, the CAS Vice President and the UCAS Secretary of Treasury? Some big names! I would expect resignations and other political fallout… maybe?
“GeMiTo”
Maybe I’m a bit slow, but I have no idea where this is? Europe by the rest of the text, but where? Italy maybe…?
“If this number has remained consistent over the last six months, GeMiTo could actually have seen the loss of a staggering fifty-four thousand metahumans since Alamais arrived in the city.”
OMG! Fifty-four thousand metahumans killed… actually eaten! You have got to freakin be kidding? This is massive, even in Shadowrun. That’s a lot of dead civilians, eaten at that. Followed by…
“In public, these deaths have not been reported in order to avoid an all-out panic.”
And this I find hard to believe. With the number of organisations trying to build up anti-dragon movements, including Aztechnology, the number one or two of PR, I find it hard to believe that word of this has not leaked. Even through shadow channels, escaped refugees from the city, something. How are the Dragons keeping a whole city under control? And what would Europe’s reaction be to such a massive slaughter, the largest in sometime. And people are getting eaten! Eaten! Freakin’ hell! [/spoiler]
“Calozerca”
Who is Calozerca?
“He added, though, that as a member of the academic community, his role in the “civil war” was to remain one of neutrality”
This quote is about Schwarzkopf. Did he actually call it a ‘civil war’ in public? Does this growing conflict between various dragon factions (the number of ‘factions’ is almost as numerous as actual greats) actually equate to a civil war? Has Hestaby actually challenged Lowfyr for rulership of dragonkind? She has gone against tradition, and she and Lowfyr have had a few indirect spats, but for a great to actually call it a civil war implies a lot more than just a disagreement…[/spoiler]
“Pobre”
The Aztlan dragon. I don’t think his a great…. Is he? And perhaps his not as toxic as rumours suggest?
“There are definitely some interesting happenings in the UCAS Sector beyond all the UCAS military personnel being withdrawn from the Zone Defense Force while staying in Denver.”
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Just quoting this because its worth noting. Looks like the PCC will dominate the ZDF and the UCAS will withdraw its forces. Wonder what CAS and the Sioux are doing? Looks like the ZDF is more and more GW’s own army…
Like to see more on what happens to the STC now. Also, like the ‘no summoning’ rule in Denver, will make runs more interesting. Finally, let’s have more info on what’s really happening at the Denver Data Haven.
Who owns Roswell now? It’s in Texas isn’t it… no Aztlan?
“Sirrurg has also razed the CAS cities of Odessa, Lubbock, Midland, and Seminole. Each of the attacks left similar amounts of casualties and destruction in their wake. Sirrurg has also hit the PCC, choosing to hit the Albuquerque sprawl. Nearly a thousand were killed in Sirrurg’s attack on Albuquerque”
A thousand casualties from a full on Dragon attack isn’t so bad. But I get he did other things as well which may have shaken up a lot more people. That said, I would have thought that the PCC and CAS would have allied with Aztlan to deal with the threat… but no… it looks like CAS want to go to war against Aztlan to get to the dragon. Yep, I can see how that twisted logic will lead to nothing but loss of life and property.[/spoiler]
“Despite Pueblo not being as willing to go to war over Sirrurg’s actions—they see it as something that Aztlan has no
control over—the CAS is not backing back down on its threats.”
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At least the PCC aren’t idiots. CAS? Could be because they have a Human Nation vice president? Or something else? Otherwise, seems kinda poor logic to invade a country to get a te.. okay, I see that logic, but Aztlan has lost a ton of special forces etc. trying to take down the same bad guy. Surely they aren’t the enemy this time?
Ok, that’s my notes, questions etc. from the first chapter. Generally a good read, but pretty confusing sometimes. Hard to keep track of whose who, and with the dragons, whose working with whom etc. I think Hestaby is losing, but then Lowfyr seems to have a ton of issues he needs to resolve, asap. The Sirrug stuff doesn’t seem right, CAS seem too eager to go to war with someone who is actually on their side. Just saying, only my opinion.
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Early days as yet.
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It's hard to say that the CAS and Aztlan are ever on the same side. :) Sirrurg is in Aztlan territory, blowing up Azzies, but also flying over the border to attack CAS and PCC turf.
PCC, "You have to stop this."
Aztlan: "We're trying! He just ate another unit."
PCC: "Well... keep at it. *grumble* We'll try and keep our people calm."
CAS: "You have to stop this!"
Aztlan: "We're trying! He just ate another unit."
CAS: "Not good enough, you bastards! If you don't send more men, WE will!"
That is one hot triangle down there.
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GeMiTo is Genova, Milan, and Torino all linked together in some mediterranean mess. And there is a worldwide conspiracy to limit the knowledge of these dragon attacks. Now, whether or not the conspirators are one group or many they may have vastly different goals: limit panic so as not to provoke the dragons or force the dragons' hands into committing more unignorable attacks for an eventual reprisal.
Chapterhouses work if Alamos 20K is broken up into cells and is also a bit... fanatical.
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It is simple, really. Panic by metahumans that dragons are showing their superiority will demand a reprisal from governments and megacorps to keep their citizens happy. Because mass panic is historically one of the best causes of revolution. People are frightened, and they lash out. And they usually lash out at those in power, who aren't keeping them from being scared. Now, I'm not saying this would actually topple any major governments or megas, but it is bad for business, yeah?
And any retaliation by metahumans would demand dragon reprisals in turn. That path leads quickly to all out war with the dragons, and no one is exactly sure that they would be able to kill a great dragon right now, unless they get another dragon to join them.
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GeMiTo (Italy) has its own short section in Feral Cities, but the long and short of it is that it's basically a Barrens covering several hundred square kilometers, with a population of ten million and nobody in charge - for almost forty years. You could lose a couple hundred a day each from just Seattle's Barren areas and not make a real dent in its population. While 100,000 (estimated) a year is a lot, and it's a solid 1% of the population ... people who don't pay taxes don't get attention paid back to them. Also, remember that this is a 'maximal estimate' - not a real, hard number.
Calozerca, as I recall, is an adult non-Great dragon who awoke in Poland and has been active on and off in Eastern Europe. I think, but may be incorrect, that he has a lair in the Caucuses.
I do NOT believe Schwartzkopf himself used the term - what we're getting is, after all, a summation of a press release. However, if he did use it, note the quotes around the term; this would indicate that he's using the term that the people who are asking him questions are using, not that he necessarily considers it to actually be such a thing. Consider the quotes replacing the words 'so-called'. "My role in the so-called civil war is to remain one of neutrality."
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It's hard to say that the CAS and Aztlan are ever on the same side. :) Sirrurg is in Aztlan territory, blowing up Azzies, but also flying over the border to attack CAS and PCC turf.
PCC, "You have to stop this."
Aztlan: "We're trying! He just ate another unit."
PCC: "Well... keep at it. *grumble* We'll try and keep our people calm."
CAS: "You have to stop this!"
Aztlan: "We're trying! He just ate another unit."
CAS: "Not good enough, you bastards! If you don't send more men, WE will!"
That is one hot triangle down there.
Thanks Wak for the explanation. Despite the CAS grandstaning, I don't think they would go to war over something Aztlan cant control... unless they are just looking for an excuse... maybe...
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GeMiTo is Genova, Milan, and Torino all linked together in some mediterranean mess. And there is a worldwide conspiracy to limit the knowledge of these dragon attacks. Now, whether or not the conspirators are one group or many they may have vastly different goals: limit panic so as not to provoke the dragons or force the dragons' hands into committing more unignorable attacks for an eventual reprisal
Oh, I get why the power that be might want to limit the fallout. And GeMiTo is a massive sprawling barren (thanks all for the update, no idea otherwise, very much appreicated)... but the powers that be can only control so much. Word always gets out. wether via the Matrix or via refugees from the city talking about horror stories of Dragons hunting people. The residents of GeMiTo must be abolutely terrified. I did wonder how the Dragons kept control of the citty, but now I get the impression that they don't instead using the city as one big hunting ground.
Still pretty horrifing. I would still think that something like this will leak to the public eventually and it will cause an outcry on a global scale.
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I do NOT believe Schwartzkopf himself used the term - what we're getting is, after all, a summation of a press release. However, if he did use it, note the quotes around the term; this would indicate that he's using the term that the people who are asking him questions are using, not that he necessarily considers it to actually be such a thing. Consider the quotes replacing the words 'so-called'. "My role in the so-called civil war is to remain one of neutrality."
Hmm... that would be better. Wouldn't think he would actually call it a civil war, or even if they concept really exist as such in Dragon society.
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Thanks Wak for the explanation. Despite the CAS grandstaning, I don't think they would go to war over something Aztlan cant control... unless they are just looking for an excuse... maybe...
The CAS has been looking for an excuse since Aztlan took a chunk out of Texas decades ago.
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Thanks Wak for the explanation. Despite the CAS grandstaning, I don't think they would go to war over something Aztlan cant control... unless they are just looking for an excuse... maybe...
The CAS has been looking for an excuse since Aztlan took a chunk out of Texas decades ago.
Well, more Texas has been looking for an excuse. The rest of the CAS, not so much. (And you'd think that the Texans would realize that, you know, the reason they don't have half of Texas is because teh Azzies kicked their ass and took it from them, but, rage is rarely rational.)
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Still pretty horrifing. I would still think that something like this will leak to the public eventually and it will cause an outcry on a global scale.
Indeed... It will probably leak to the public RIGHT as Lofwyr and the rest of that board meeting does something about it. You know, coincidentally... Heh.
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Still pretty horrifing. I would still think that something like this will leak to the public eventually and it will cause an outcry on a global scale.
Indeed... It will probably leak to the public RIGHT as Lofwyr and the rest of that board meeting does something about it. You know, coincidentally... Heh.
It's international news. The local media doesn't often report on that sort of thing.
After all, LOOK! Aztechnology's getting ready to roll out a new slate of NERPS! Woo hoo! And, OMG, did you see what Teiko-chan was wearing on the trid last night? That was a new outfit from Horizon's Top of the Tops line! And those glasses are to DIE for! Squeeee!!!
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
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... I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. What was that about Italian gelatto?
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
Heck, most of the West didn't believe the Holocaust was occurring until they physically walked in on it.
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
Heck, most of the West didn't believe the Holocaust was occurring until they physically walked in on it.
Humans are pretty adept at ignoring things that are... Inconvenient to their world view.
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
You would speak differnet if you are European :)
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
You would speak differnet if you are European :)
Rwanda wasn't ignored, at least not everywhere. Aussies had un troops there, they just weren't allowed to do anything, thank you security council members... But what was happening was well known.
Also, the location is different. Europe may not be the place it is today, but it's home to some pretty important locations and the 'circuit'
Finally, this is not just man on man volience, this is an alien creature turning mankind into cattle. That's got to cause some reaction.
And while mainstream media is perhaps turning a bLind eye, what about shadowsea and pirate triid stations, word of mouth from refugees and smugglers, impacts on criminal networks that use the plex etc?
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In fact, considering criminal syndicates operating in the area toda, those organizations are those who have great potential not only survive awakening and its consequencies, but also profit from it. And GeMiTo...hmmmlooks like great area for such organizations. And such organizations own media. Always looking for oportunity to spread chaos, because in such conditions they are winning the price.
Also...every christian in the world would get interrested if something like that...Hellspawn killing innocents, happens nextdoor to Vatican, in the hardcore cradle of the Church.
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
You would speak differnet if you are European :)
Indeed. I'd make overtly racist remarks about it being African tribal violence.
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
You would speak differnet if you are European :)
Indeed. I'd make overtly racist remarks about it being African tribal violence.
That was rude. And uncalled for.
Sichr was referring to the fact, that Europe had a lot of things like that happening to it's people. Would you like if I pointed to the Native American people being massacred by the US citizens and military in the real world?
Oh, wait. I just did... Sorry for that, but I hope you get the point. Nobody is innocent, but there are some things, that Europe suffered from, and wounds that will not heal anytime soon. As I wrote on the WAR! topic before: One trip to the Auschwitz museum is what it takes, to make people see.
P.S. Sorry for being emotional, and all, but after some dumb memetic/racist stuff my players said during the last game I'm being a bit touchy about the subject.
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
You would speak differnet if you are European :)
Indeed. I'd make overtly racist remarks about it being African tribal violence.
I think he was rather referring to how European audience would react to dragons killing people in northern Italy. That is, any distance between 0 and 2,000 kilometers away from their house. A better example would be hundred of killings in Mexico, and no one in the US even remotely aware of what's going on even in San Diego, San Antonio or Corpus Christi.
But since we're already well into overtly racist cliché, I guess people in the US are oblivious about anything happening outside of their border, even that close. And imagine the rest of the world mustn't know better. As amazing as it may appear to the American audience, there were major channels in Europe that covered the killings in Rwanda from day one in the evening news. Oh, and journalists could correctly pinpoint where the country is on a map.
I find all the more amusing to describe a racist a depiction of Rwanda genocide as "African tribal violence". As far as I know, Rwanda is in Africa, to be a Tutsi or a Hutu depends solely on the tribe you're from, and the genocide amounted to violence.
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Woo, guys? How about we toss some cool water on the RL talk for a bit?
Just a soft suggestion.
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Oh, and journalists could correctly pinpoint where the country is on a map.
That, sir, was a good one. :D
But...just to get the feeling, from my house to Venezia it is about 600km. Thats like 2/5 of distance from Seattle to Denver. With no "tribal" areas between...
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That was rude. And uncalled for.
Sichr was referring to the fact, that Europe had a lot of things like that happening to it's people. Would you like if I pointed to the Native American people being massacred by the US citizens and military in the real world?
Oh, wait. I just did... Sorry for that, but I hope you get the point. Nobody is innocent, but there are some things, that Europe suffered from, and wounds that will not heal anytime soon. As I wrote on the WAR! topic before: One trip to the Auschwitz museum is what it takes, to make people see.
Hate to break it to you, people do that all the time. Usually in as a method of moral equivilency over various massacres.
Kinda like you just did now.
Reality is, no one gave a crap about rwanda while it happened, inso much they got off their rears to DO something about it. Not EU. Not the US, not really anyone. So the poster was correct, no one cared. They might have said alot of the right things after the fact as caring, but reality when it came to actions/inactions tell another story.
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That was rude. And uncalled for.
Sichr was referring to the fact, that Europe had a lot of things like that happening to it's people. Would you like if I pointed to the Native American people being massacred by the US citizens and military in the real world?
Oh, wait. I just did... Sorry for that, but I hope you get the point. Nobody is innocent, but there are some things, that Europe suffered from, and wounds that will not heal anytime soon. As I wrote on the WAR! topic before: One trip to the Auschwitz museum is what it takes, to make people see.
Hate to break it to you, people do that all the time. Usually in as a method of moral equivilency over various massacres.
Kinda like you just did now.
Reality is, no one gave a crap about rwanda while it happened, inso much they got off their rears to DO something about it. Not EU. Not the US, not really anyone. So the poster was correct, no one cared. They might have said alot of the right things after the fact as caring, but reality when it came to actions/inactions tell another story.
es. Today we can see equivalent in Syria
But to this, only one point...
Being unable to act is something completely different from being unaware. As Ive understand the topic we are talking about is that there was major manslaughter in GeMiTo and there is no public coverage on this event, more, it seems that people are completely unaware of the event...
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The reason for that is simple, Sichr. There is no such thing as a 'free press' in 2074. There are news outlets owned by the corps (who have decided that mass panic is bad for business, and GeMiTo is practically the Chicago of Europe), and then there's tabloids and pirate and shadow news outlets, who have limited reporting capabilities, limited distribution, and a lack of 'credibility' as far as the sheeple are concerned. The reason most people are unaware is because they haven't been told, and good corporate sheep don't go looking around on shadow news sites. Whatever they do hear is reports from someplace a long way away, and is not nearly as important to them as filing those TPS reports so they don't have to stay late on Saturday.
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IDN. In Chicago there was active contrapropaganda. Everyone knew something bad happened there, but believed the quarantine is there fo protect rest of the world from disease. People were aware of the situation. And there was quarantine that affectively disable any kind of migration. What I say is, that if something like that happened, people who witnessed that would flee frome GeMiTo and the word would spread like the fire across European countries.
Also, Social media aree way ahead from current state, and you know, even with primitive facebook etc people were able to organize couple of revolutions in north africa despites government attempts to shut down the network and jam the communication. I dont believe those guys in Libya even had smartphones. On the oposite, commlink is a standard.
As for "free press"...well, you really believe, that there is such thing even today???
Seems lot of people believe in black and white scale of dystopian society: people are criminals/shadowrunners/revolutinars or sheeps. you are missing whole bunch of people between. I know it is easy and simple to imagine the shadowrun society like this. Well I`ve grew up in what would Orwell call fulfillment of his vision, and I can tell you, there is much more than those two types.
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I meant Chicago, 2074. Life is still fragging awful in the former CZ, there are still warlords and bugs running around, not to mention clouds of FAB IIIb. And that's not even touching the drek that was going on in Chicago before the UB set up shop. The Shattergraves are still a bad place to be.
Basically, Chicago is a place that has been nasty for so long that most people would gladly pretend like it was on another planet, and would rather go 400 miles out of their way to get around it than going there. Anyone who actually goes there is obviously asking for whatever happens to them, since they didn't bother to stay in nice, safe places like corporate compounds.
But to bring it on a more 'close to home' example, how much do you think the people in Seattle really care about the absolute hellhole that is Redmond, except when Redmond's troubles overflow the boundaries, and start affecting them personally? Or we could look at LA before the walls came down. Pay no attention to the starving masses on the other side of the wall, we're busy getting in line for one of the rides at Virtual World Disney. I can go on, but the fact is that most people really don't care about problems that aren't affecting them, more than sending a pledge in when they see the commercials talking about starving kids in Africa, and how a dollar a day can save their life. They do that, feel good about themselves, and go back to worrying about their own, more immediate, problems.
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The reason for that is simple, Sichr. There is no such thing as a 'free press' in 2074.
SR4A states there's a ton of independent and outright pirate radio and trid stations, along with even more matrix broadcasting sites. I wouldn't say there isn't any Free Press in a world with a global information network that cannot be controlled.
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Did you even bother reading the very next sentence in my post, Kot? Yes, there are 'independent' news sources, just as there are now. How much credence do you lend the National Enquirer? How reliable are blogs? How many viral videos are 'proven' to be hoaxes? The fact that there were AIs was commonly known in the shadows within a couple months of the SCIRE locking down. And yet to the general public (even black bag researchers in AAA corps) their existence was a thing of matrix myth until Sojourner and Pulsar decided to say hello by jacking first a space station and then every trid screen and matrix feed on Earth. The Otaku were known in the shadows even before the Shutdown began, and the public didn't find out about them until the Technomancer scare.
In other words, if the Big 10 want something kept quiet, it doesn't matter that the shadows and the underworld know the score, the wageslaves and sheeple won't have a clue so long as they effectively 'debunk' and marginalize those sources that don't toe the party line, and keep major news under wraps for a decade or more, easily.
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The reason for that is simple, Sichr. There is no such thing as a 'free press' in 2074. There are news outlets owned by the corps (who have decided that mass panic is bad for business, and GeMiTo is practically the Chicago of Europe), and then there's tabloids and pirate and shadow news outlets, who have limited reporting capabilities, limited distribution, and a lack of 'credibility' as far as the sheeple are concerned. The reason most people are unaware is because they haven't been told, and good corporate sheep don't go looking around on shadow news sites. Whatever they do hear is reports from someplace a long way away, and is not nearly as important to them as filing those TPS reports so they don't have to stay late on Saturday.
Hate to tell you there's not exactly alot of free press nowadays. Your seeing the same thing in regards to the Syrian deaths scandal thats happening here in the US. All the main MSM outlest are acting like puppets to the administration and not asking the hard questions. While other outlets and blogs and other places are certainly going after the story.
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Scandal? You mean the fact that hundreds of people are getting killed in Syria each week and people are more concerned with college football? As I said in that and other posts, yes, there is a free or 'independent' press, but when the corporate powers want something suppressed, they go about it in the simplest way possible, by discrediting and marginalizing the people who try to get the information out, and then giving people something else to pay attention to, like a new flavor NERPS. Go around the US, and see how many people actually know what is going on in Syria. Then find out how many of those people feel that while it is bad that people are dying, they have more pressing concerns at the moment, like the local economy, and the state of their 401K, or even just whether their team is going to make it to a bowl game.
Bread and circuses, mixed with controlling the main streams to disseminate information and making anyone who says different look like that crazy guy who comes up to you and tells you how there's actually a global conspiracy to keep gas prices high and make sure the New World Order comes to be. They actually touched on this in the Conspiracy Theories book. The principle doesn't just apply to the really out there stuff, but also to anything the powers that be don't want told to the public.
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Scandal? You mean the fact that hundreds of people are getting killed in Syria each week and people are more concerned with college football?
Actually its 4 dead americans, one an ambasssador(which we havent lost since Carter, ironically), and the story parroted out is reaction to a movie did it and most of the press isnt investigating or going along with it. Meanwhile turns out they watched it in real time with drones, and aid was requested and denied over the hours battle......again, no press looking into the story, actually looking the other way. Except for one outlet and citizen journalists and blogs.
Its the exact same thing as corp/scandal.
Now your talking that lots more people dying in syria and again, much like rwanda, Iran no one really cares.
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My problem is Aztechnology. You know, the corporation who used to be #1 for media control for the last decades, and still ranks #2.
Their use of blood magic was outed by a dragon in his will. They were expelled from Denver by the open show of force a dragon. They broadcasted live the first death penalty carried on a dragon. They support the Aztlan military in a war against a nation ruled by a dragon, allied with a terrorist organization led by another dragon.
Their entire public image in the past 15 years has been define by opposition to dragons. Where is the reason for Aztechnology not to spread the news that dragons are evil and eat people? Moreover, any news that would pull attention away from events in South America would be good for them. All Aztechnology affiliated medias should be covering the dragon killings in northern Italy in the evening news on a daily schedule.
Reality is, no one gave a crap about rwanda while it happened, inso much they got off their rears to DO something about it. Not EU. Not the US, not really anyone. So the poster was correct, no one cared. They might have said alot of the right things after the fact as caring, but reality when it came to actions/inactions tell another story.
Actually, France sent 2,500 troops in Rwanda in late june 1994. As a comparison, the highest number of French troops in Afghanistan in the last decade never got past 4,000. The French government acted mostly because of public opinion, and would have preferred not getting involved any further : there have been evidence uncovered since of French mercenaries involvement in hutus operations prior to the genocide, including president Habyarimana assassination, and possibly during it.
You can talk about eastern Congo, Sri Lanka, Burma, Karabakh, and the point is made. Rwanda is a much more complicated story.
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Despite its reputation the National Enquirer is very good at investigating stories it runs. They don't run stories that they can not back in court. To bad they waist on unimportant scandal and gossip.
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You can talk about eastern Congo, Sri Lanka, Burma, Karabakh, and the point is made. Rwanda is a much more complicated story.
http://hmd.org.uk/resources/education/rwandan-timeline
No. It really isnt that much more complicated.
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The reason for that is simple, Sichr. There is no such thing as a 'free press' in 2074.
There were any in 2050?
Or 2012 for that matter? :P
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All I can say is that the gemito stuff struck a cord, more so then the attacks on cas. Which is a credit to the author, in that that one section has inspired so much discussion.
I for one would like to see a future product return to gemito in more detail and resolve this plot thread. Given that its a major thorn in lowfyr's side, I guess its a given.
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The reason for that is simple, Sichr. There is no such thing as a 'free press' in 2074.
There were any in 2050?
Or 2012 for that matter? :P
Xactly what Ive said in the last sentence.....
Doesnt matter
question is:
TURIN
The millennial city is now full of burnt-out ruins, the once-pristine golden stucco of the baroque-style buildings darkened by
acid rain and fires or destroyed altogether in the years of riots and
ongoing gang warfare. Th e only exception is the old town center,
which remains a safe haven. The ancient buildings there still stand,
testament to the glorious days of Italian architecture. At the heart
of old town is the Sylvestrine friars’ Societá Th aumaturgica, a
school for Gifted children and the center of old town’s civic pride.
Brother Dario is the Abbot of the school, although Brother Gianni
is the community liaison and the person most well known outside
the school’s walls. Th e friars are active in the small community,
and the street witches and mages that graduate from the school
help out the friars and the city as best they can. Some attribute
the peace of the inner city to the good works of the friars. Others
whisper of powers that lie below the city in the catacombs of the
Grande Madre Church
what happened to sylvestrians...since they play significant role in artefacts campaign, I dont expect them to fall easily
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All I can say is that the gemito stuff struck a cord, more so then the attacks on cas. Which is a credit to the author, in that that one section has inspired so much discussion.
I for one would like to see a future product return to gemito in more detail and resolve this plot thread. Given that its a major thorn in lowfyr's side, I guess its a given.
This is true! And I'm glad to see it discussed. Yet another front in the Dragon Civil War, eh wot? Only this one's a tad personal, since it's Alamais.
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Well, the Azzies have their hands full with a full on war with Amazonia, trying to counter Horizon's fun and games at their expense, and the rest. But really, it boils down to "What does this gain us?" You don't think Aztechnology is on a crusade against dragons, do you? They want Sirrurg and Ghostwalker dead, sure, but what profit is in it for them if they go raising a stink in someplace that is painfully close to Lofwyr's back yard? Moreover, while i'm sure they wouldn't say it in public, the fact is that if all the great dragons decided that they'd had enough of Aztechnology's bull, and decided to declare war, the Azzies would lose. See how much trouble they're having with Sirrurg, and he's just one great dragon.
Oh, and there's the fact that Saeder-Krupp is in control of the Corporate Court committee dealing with problems like that this year. And the Azzies aren't in a position to go flaunting the Court, not when there are nine other corps on the court who would be all too eager to take bites out of the Azzies. If a gag order has been imposed, then Aztechnology would have to stand to gain more than they would lose to risk going against it. And they just don't stand to gain that much from stirring up a panic.
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Sichr ... you really, really do need to proof your posts.
And as Mirikon said. Not only that, though, but if you were in a war with one, maybe two Great Dragons (isn't one of the others helping Sirrurg out with Aztlan, or is it only an adult or two?) and you went and blew the lid off GeMiTo, don't you think that that'd basically be giving license to that dragon to come 'play' in your country as well?? And not just one who does military strikes (well, relatively military ones, anyhow), but one - a whole group!! - who's going to be treating your entire damn country as a place for out-and-out occupation-and-feeding? Seems it might be kind of a stupid idea to me ...
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Amazonia had three Great Dragons at one point, I do believe. Sirrurg was one, Hualpa was another, and I want to say Pobre was the third, though he obviously branched off into the Yucatan instead. (I don't think that the third was ever officially named, other than being a 'great feathered dragon', so, there are a few candidates. Aden (A sirrush, but close enough to confuse), Arleesh (Who woke up too late, but), and maybe the Rain Queen. Short list!)
Ghostwalker in Denver means that four or five Greats have an eye on Aztlan. Not a happy place, to be certain. :)
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Amazonia had three Great Dragons at one point, I do believe. Sirrurg was one, Hualpa was another, and I want to say Pobre was the third, though he obviously branched off into the Yucatan instead. (I don't think that the third was ever officially named, other than being a 'great feathered dragon', so, there are a few candidates. Aden (A sirrush, but close enough to confuse), Arleesh (Who woke up too late, but), and maybe the Rain Queen. Short list!)
Ghostwalker in Denver means that four or five Greats have an eye on Aztlan. Not a happy place, to be certain. :)
They really are justified in building anti-dragon weapons. There is a clear and present danger, and convental methods are completely ineffective.
I wonder what CAS has done to secure its borders? It seems Sirrug is crossing the border and hitting cities without much real resistence. If they can't defend themselves, what chance to they have on the offense?
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That is a very good question.
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Sichr ... you really, really do need to proof your posts.
And as Mirikon said. Not only that, though, but if you were in a war with one, maybe two Great Dragons (isn't one of the others helping Sirrurg out with Aztlan, or is it only an adult or two?) and you went and blew the lid off GeMiTo, don't you think that that'd basically be giving license to that dragon to come 'play' in your country as well?? And not just one who does military strikes (well, relatively military ones, anyhow), but one - a whole group!! - who's going to be treating your entire damn country as a place for out-and-out occupation-and-feeding? Seems it might be kind of a stupid idea to me ...
If the english is in question, sory, Im doing my best. Some typos happen when I have to switch keyboard to english to be able to write special characters.
Otherwise, I fail see what my post you`ve been responding...
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I wasn't responding to anything in your post, Sichr, mostly because it was incomprehensible babble at the time. Sorry.
And the Sylvestrines are probably hunkering down. For all people seem to think they're some kind of magical strike force, they aren't - they're an investigative tool, to winnow out the merely magical from the truly sacred - seeking out actual miracles, not just mojo.
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I wasn't responding to anything in your post, Sichr, mostly because it was incomprehensible babble at the time. Sorry.
hm... Ive just re-readed my posts, and it seem quite "comprehensible" to me :-\
It seems too much is lost in translation and I dont even know where I make mistakes :-[
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Well, the Azzies have their hands full with a full on war with Amazonia, trying to counter Horizon's fun and games at their expense, and the rest.
Dunno. Aztechnology used to be, you know, a megacorporation. In spite of the war in Colombia, Stuffer Shacks in Seattle and Kuala Lumpur still get reassorted. So I'm pretty confident the Aztechnology-owned medias in Turin or Barcelona can find one reporter and a working camera to pull out a reportage. Or even a single employee with a comlink and a fake "citizen-journalist" label. The top-notch teams of media control may be occupied, but in this case, there's no need to doctor anything: the simple unadorned truth is all Aztechnology needs. Aztechnology is not counting on help from the international community or anything like that, and Amazonia is not getting anything like that either. They just need people to keep on buying the Aztechnology products advertised on Aztechnology medias. As far as they're concerned, anything that distracts the attention away from the war would suit.
But really, it boils down to "What does this gain us?" You don't think Aztechnology is on a crusade against dragons, do you? They want Sirrurg and Ghostwalker dead, sure, but what profit is in it for them if they go raising a stink in someplace that is painfully close to Lofwyr's back yard? Moreover, while i'm sure they wouldn't say it in public, the fact is that if all the great dragons decided that they'd had enough of Aztechnology's bull, and decided to declare war, the Azzies would lose. See how much trouble they're having with Sirrurg, and he's just one great dragon.
No. I think the dragons should be on a crusade against Aztechnology. A crusade fought at a dragon's pace, but a crusade nonetheless. Aztlan SB exposed the Aztechnology connection to the Horrors. Corporate Guide confirmed it's still alive and kicking. Not a single dragon in the world is going to forget that Aztechnology is a tool for the Horrors and as such, a mortal enemy. So, yes, I clearly fail to see how badmouthing Alamais (not exactly the most popular dragon around...) ought to be the casus belli for dragons. Dunkelzahn would be crying to find out it finally was that easy to have the entire dragon race waging war against Aztechnology. But otherwise, the media coverage and the UN address after Sirrurg killed a thousand people in Cali was perfectly fine. Go figure.
Oh, and there's the fact that Saeder-Krupp is in control of the Corporate Court committee dealing with problems like that this year. And the Azzies aren't in a position to go flaunting the Court, not when there are nine other corps on the court who would be all too eager to take bites out of the Azzies. If a gag order has been imposed, then Aztechnology would have to stand to gain more than they would lose to risk going against it. And they just don't stand to gain that much from stirring up a panic.
So it's simply because of a gag order enforced by a world conspiracy of dragons and megacorporations. Why didn't you just start by that?
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Pobre isn't a great, just an adult dragon who's gone toxic, but is hiding it well enough to get by.
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Pobre isn't a great, just an adult dragon who's gone toxic, but is hiding it well enough to get by.
Who knows?
Maybe he's secretly courting Firewings.
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No one gave a shit when 800,000 Rwandans were butchered. Why would anyone in SR care about a bunch of Italian, at best, squatters in what is basically Northern Somalia?
Because Dragons are eating people.
It's not the same ol' same ol' ethnic violence. Dragons are everywhere, and if they're doing that there, what about in other places?
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Except they aren't doing it everywhere. They're doing it in someplace far away that no one really cared about for the last couple decades at least. And they still have to make their deadlines or they'll lose their job and rent will still be due.
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Except they aren't doing it everywhere. They're doing it in someplace far away that no one really cared about for the last couple decades at least. And they still have to make their deadlines or they'll lose their job and rent will still be due.
You know I do have to pay my bills and make my deadlines and I have enought time to play Shadowrun.
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Except they aren't doing it everywhere. They're doing it in someplace far away that no one really cared about for the last couple decades at least.
That "far away" is about 250 kilometers away from more functional cities like Zurich, Marseille and Lyon.
A place a few hundred kilometers away from both touristic areas and tax havens, impoverished, left out of the world economy, that no one really cared about for the last couple decades (at least on the geopolitical stage and in the mainstream medias)? Try Cuba. This is like the Castro regime shooting half a dozen of people out in the street every day and the information not getting out. Not just in the US (obviously, the topic would be highly sensitive for political reason). But not in any other country in the world?
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I'll do you one better, Nath. Take a look at the cartel violence in Mexico, literally just a couple hundred yards over the US border. In some places, its like guerilla warfare. And people here only care when the violence spills over into the US. And even then, you'd be hard pressed to find people outside of border states or politicians running for re-election that actually care enough to talk about it.
Hell, in 2074 people in Seattle don't care about what is happening in Redmond, which is literally right next door to high end neighborhoos, so long as the problems don't cross over into other districts. And since the news sources they trust say that the dragons hunting people is exaggerated, if they mention it at all, then they aren't going to care about GeMiTo.
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But my point is that it has nothing to do with the place "far away" as you put it. First because it is not for a good chunk of that world outside the US called "Europe."
There's also a difference between people knowing and people caring. It's not because people don't care that they don't know.
I guess people in Downtown Seattle know there's gang violence in Redmond and that they shouldn't go there. I guess people in the US know there's lots of gang violence in Mexico. Not the exact deathtoll or the name of the cartels. But they have overheard something is happening, no? People in Europe do, and to them, it actually is "far away".
As a comparison, the deathtoll of the Mexican Drug War is said to be between 55,000 and 100,000 over six years. Alamais rampage in Northwest Italy is said to be 65,000 in six months, and it's not over. Sirrurg attack, that got him an Hestaby speech at the UN broadcasted live and an indiction for war crime, killed 15,000 (5,000 soldiers during the battle and 10,000 civilians with the Mass Haste Death spell).
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I would understand writers want this look cataclysmatic. Like war on dragons would be. I just lack ANY response...well its possibly a question of time. And dont tell me that even corporate people would sit down watching themselves eaten, paralyzed, helpless and defenseless with orbital weapons lockdown unless there is nobody left.
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Except they aren't doing it everywhere. They're doing it in someplace far away that no one really cared about for the last couple decades at least. And they still have to make their deadlines or they'll lose their job and rent will still be due.
The Dragons don't have to be everywhere. Dragons are eating people. This isn't the same ol' violence or drug war. Humans, or metahumans, aren't doing the killing. Big flaming lizards are.
So they'll be afraid, then they'll BTL it away. But there'll be increased tension for those who actually get to see the reports.
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Europe? What's that?
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offense intended?
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offense intended?
No, it reads as a joke, similar to when Americans use "Otherplacia" and "Otherplacia" for somewhere that isn't the US. It's a meta-comment about how many Americans can't be bothered to learn about other places, like Europe.
We're ... rather inward-looking.
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I have strange feeling about this topic...
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Yes, it was a joke. And a comment on how a lot of the modern gaming systems seems to be America-centric. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble finding books that detail the problems Europe and Africa face, but Asia and the Western Hemisphere seem to always be pretty detailed. I mean, this is the first time I can remember GeMiTo getting a lot of attention, and I wasn't sure what it even was before Clutch of Dragons. I must have missed the one or two sentence write-up that explained it somewhere in the books I have. I am sure I am just missing the books that specify, but it does seem like my Shadowrun collection is missing some really important details about 'running in Europe.
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Do you, by chance, have Shadows of Europe?
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On a related note, it is possible that more things have been done with GeMiTo in the German material, but that it just hasn't been translated over to English. As I understand, there are a lot of plots and materials that have taken place in the German material that are canon, but is only referenced as innuendo in the English.
Ethan, that is exactly why there are no reports from the 'trusted sources'. Because fear interferes with productivity, and is bad for business. Hell, governments and corporations have been actively squashing stories on the dragon agents attacking talismongers and magical groups, haven't they? There is an active media blackout going on, and anything that does get out is cast as 'gang violence' or the like. Fear is bad for business, so the corps are doing what they can to prevent mass panic.
Sichr, people who live in or near GeMiTo are probably scared stiff, and crying out for someone to help them, but do you really think that anyone important enough to matter is still in that city? They're off in Rome, or Paris, or Moscow, working via Matrix. And while the Court might have orbital weapons at its disposal, those weapons are fairly indiscriminate. And Alamais has been hit by orbital lasers before, and is still around. Do you really think he'd fall for the same trick twice? That is what the members of the Court have to be thinking. They don't have any weapons they can be sure of taking down a great dragon with, short of (possibly) Thor. And Thor isn't known for its discretion when it comes to collateral damage. So yes, they might be able to kill Alamais and his brood, but they would have to sacrifice all the assets in GeMiTo to do it. And either way, they have to deal with not only a PR nightmare (whenever WMD are used in populated areas, it is a PR nightmare), but the fact that taking out a Great Dragon very likely would antagonize the other dragons even more. And it is VERY doubtful that metahumans could win an all-out war on dragonkind.
You can't just look at one frame, and say how they could stop this. You have to read further through the storyboard, and follow those actions to their logical ends. And right now, there is no way this ends well if the Court deals with Alamais. Especially since use of orbital weapons requires Court approval, and guess who's pet company is on the court? Can the rest of the big 10 really trust that Lofwyr wouldn't alert his brother to an incoming attack? Sure, they've never been close, but dragons hate to see the Young Races take down other dragons... These are the doubts that are keeping the Court in check.
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Yes, it was a joke. And a comment on how a lot of the modern gaming systems seems to be America-centric.
This may be because most gaming systems are written in America - and perhaps as a consequence, large numbers of gamers are, well, American. Gamers of all stripes like to play either a) where they live - when I lived in Cincinnati, we Ran in Cincinnati - or b) where the game is set, i.e. Seattle for Shadowrun, New York for Marvel, etc.
That said, Shadowrun is one of the few that I've observed that has made an effort to explore pretty much the entire world. As for the issues in GeMiTo, well ... okay, Lucy, let me 'splain.
The area - GeMiTo - really is like sub-Saharan Africa today. The corporations like the place just the way it is - chaotic, without government, with the citizens who are dependent on them knowing they're dependent. The corporations put the infrastructure in only where they control - which means that, like much of Sub-Saharan Africa today, the people who live there simply do not have a lot of what most people everywhere else take for granted. Sub-Saharan Africa: clean water, electrical power, easy transportation. GeMiTo: wireless, clean water, electrical power, easy transportation.
Unlike most of the events in East Africa, you don't have roaming terror squads, which you can flee; Darfur was made known to the international community because hundreds of thousands were driven from their homes, villages burned, and that is when reporters got a hold of the facts. You lose 300 people a day, scattered across sixty-one thousand square kilometers, and things are uncertain. Nobody's getting driven from their homes; one person is lifted, per day, from 200 square kilometers - each sixteen-kilometer (or ten-mile) diameter circle. Might be your house; might be four miles away. Over the last six months, one person has died within the square kilometer in which you live.
So what do you do? You don't actually have any real way to report this; your normal Matrix networking has gone to pot, some of it wrecked completely over the last almost-thirty years. In fact, you almost don't have anything to report, unless you are aware that two hundred kilometers away, the same thing is happening - but you don't have any way to discover that. The international community doesn't have the smoking cannon of entire communities getting displaced; you have what amounts to single, individual killers, not ones wrecking your entire town and driving you, your family, and everyone in your neighborhood hither and yon.
The horrific events of the dragons hunting in GeMiTo isn't a huge international outcry because a) it's only able to be recognized by someone who's looking for it (and putting together information from across sixty-one thousand square kilometers is going to be hellishly difficult), and b) because even if you're looking for it, you have one hell of a time actually contacting people to confirm it, much less getting the information out past the people who really don't want to have the international community looking closely at the area.
If you want to tighten GeMiTo up to the triangular area hilighted in the Almanac, your areas are 7374 square kilometers, one person per day per 24 2/3 square kilometers (2.8 km diameter, or 1.75 miles), one person across the last six months from within a hundred meters radius from where you live. More intense, certainly. Still, because of the fact that it's spread out over time and space, stuff like this gets missed. It's only when it's taken together as a whole that it becomes a smack in the face.
This really doesn't have anything to do with America-centric information; this has to do with something that is insidious despite its apparently overt nature. A dragon takes a single person from a mile away, okay, fine, whatever - you're more concerned about the seven zip-gun-armed punks that hang out on the stoop of the house next door to yours, because they're a current, daily, immediate threat...
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....they would have to sacrifice all the assets in GeMiTo to do it. And either way, they have to deal with not only a PR nightmare (whenever WMD are used in populated areas, it is a PR nightmare), but the fact that taking out a Great Dragon very likely would antagonize the other dragons even more. And it is VERY doubtful that metahumans could win an all-out war on dragonkind.
Now Im confused. Allowing drgons to eat tens of thousands of people in the GeMiTo area in last six months is something normal people are not even aware of, but using the WMD on the same area would be PR nightmare. Hell I think youve outmaneuvered yourself a bit...
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If you want to tighten GeMiTo up to the triangular area hilighted in the Almanac, your areas are 7374 square kilometers, one person per day per 24 2/3 square kilometers (2.8 km diameter, or 1.75 miles), one person across the last six months from within a hundred meters radius from where you live. More intense, certainly. Still, because of the fact that it's spread out over time and space, stuff like this gets missed. It's only when it's taken together as a whole that it becomes a smack in the face.
This means one Great/Adult Dragon attack per victim. Something you wont miss. and something you wont keep for yourself.
As for lack of communications:
http://www.quick-tech-news.com/category/india
;D
Also...wasnt Horizon running the campaign to spread the used commlinks to feral cities across the world? GeMiTo may had been left behind, on the other side, even Lagos wasnt, and IMO Lagos is much worse mess than GeMiTo...
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I find it unlikely Alamais and his company would be randomizing their attacks, carefully picking a new location every time. The whole dragon supemacist thing and the fact Alamais previous preferred tools were terrorist organizations led me to expect something more like thirty-tons flying lizards striking in plain day, eating entire family at once, so that everyone get to see who rule. The kind of things that makes a story worthy to be told outside of your square kilometer (just for the sake of saying "I've seen a dragon." which most people in the Sixth World cannot say), spread, and create rumors, that get confirmed by people from the square kilometer next. The thing staying unoticed kinda defeat the purpose of the statement: the dragon race is to dominate humanity, but only where it is appropriate and not too obvious?
Local independent medias are a recent addition to how information spread in Africa. For a long time, medias were under government conrols. NGO have extensive networks of contacts from their current and former operations (including said new independent reporters), and still play a major role in getting the information to western media. But a few decades ago, the catholic church was the main channel: the local priest got a letter send to the bishop, the bishop to the archbishop, the archbishop to the Vatican, and the Vatican to catholic newspaper worldwide. It would probably work just as well in Italy.
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Actually its 4 dead americans, one an ambasssador(which we havent lost since Carter, ironically), and the story parroted out is reaction to a movie did it and most of the press isnt investigating or going along with it. Meanwhile turns out they watched it in real time with drones, and aid was requested and denied over the hours battle.....
That was Libya. And replace "turns out" with "one outlet claims that"
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....they would have to sacrifice all the assets in GeMiTo to do it. And either way, they have to deal with not only a PR nightmare (whenever WMD are used in populated areas, it is a PR nightmare), but the fact that taking out a Great Dragon very likely would antagonize the other dragons even more. And it is VERY doubtful that metahumans could win an all-out war on dragonkind.
Now Im confused. Allowing drgons to eat tens of thousands of people in the GeMiTo area in last six months is something normal people are not even aware of, but using the WMD on the same area would be PR nightmare. Hell I think youve outmaneuvered yourself a bit...
No, because the aftereffects are different, Sichr. Dragon snatches someone, there's maybe witnesses saying that someone got taken. Thor gets deployed, and there is a large area that is simply VAPORIZED. The only reason the hit on Artie boy wasn't big news is because it got swept under the rug with a little thing called Crash 2.0. The only reason Ares nuking Chicago wasn't a bigger thing is because the ward the bugs put up contained the blast. We are talking weapons that make people rewrite maps, and are very, very visible in their use. Impact craters are a LOT harder to cover up than eyewitness reports of dragon attacks. Eyewitnesses are inherently unreliable, and in feral zones, who knows what brainbenders or other substance abuse issues they might have? Discrediting eyewitnesses is easy when you control the media. Discrediting the fact that a section of town is now a smoking crater is not.
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Such a crater wouldn't actually be that hard to cover up. Blame a drug lab or the theft of an unmarked truck transporting unstable chemicals.
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Um, you are aware that a Thor shot vaporizes everything in a 200m radius, and then after that damage starts at 30P, and goes down by every 100m, yes? We're not talking meth lab here. This is orders of magnitude different.
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Um, you are aware that a Thor shot vaporizes everything in a 200m radius, and then after that damage starts at 30P, and goes down by every 100m, yes? We're not talking meth lab here. This is orders of magnitude different.
.... a really big meth lab, then? ;)
I agree, however. Sichr, you might not be really aware of this, but India is actually one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world today. (All those call centers, see.) We're talking places that a) didn't get the WMI, b) whose regular Matrix services never got kept up and went to crap over the last 25 years, and c) whose telecomm services went to crap over the last 50 years. And Nath, sure, there's a bunch of people who can say 'I've seen a dragon', but you're saying things are both ways - people are gossiping, and they're doing it even after six months. After two months of something special, the people who are regularly exposed are going, 'yeah, so what else is new?'
To boot, you are functionally working with reporters who have 'better' things to do than report 'well, there's another gang attack in GeMiTo'. Yes, Alamais and his boys aren't bothering to hide what they're doing - but what they're doing is something that is, for the Sixth World, almost unbelievable. This is just one more reason (besides the many I've already described) why the news is underground.
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Um, you are aware that a Thor shot vaporizes everything in a 200m radius, and then after that damage starts at 30P, and goes down by every 100m, yes? We're not talking meth lab here. This is orders of magnitude different.
In a place like Lagos nowadays, police has found meth lab with a production capacity of 140 to 200 kg per week. So ingredients and by-products would have been in the ton-range per week. In a truly lawless area (which Lagos obviously actually isn't, since there were policemen to find that lab) like Gemito, there would be little reason for the mafia not to scale up the operations even more. Even with a lab ten or twenty times that size, you maybe wouldn't get a crater as big as, say, Toulouse explosion in 2001 (300-400 tons of ammonium nitrate, resulting in a 70m wide crater and 3,4 on Richter scale). But that would be well in range for a Freya shot (more likely to be used for a single target). And anyway, how would people get to know mathemtical analysis can debunk the official theory, since the point has been made that Gemito is not the kind of place where investigations are carried?
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And Nath, sure, there's a bunch of people who can say 'I've seen a dragon', but you're saying things are both ways - people are gossiping, and they're doing it even after six months. After two months of something special, the people who are regularly exposed are going, 'yeah, so what else is new?'
I'm no longer arguing over media coverage, since there is a world conspiracy of dragons and megacorporations to enforce the gag order. I was just arguing over the fact people inside Gemito area (locals, priests, NGO, indie reporters or whatever) wouldn't be able to connect the dots because of attacks always happening in a different place. After two months of different people talking about seeing dragons and people disappearing in different places, I kinda expect Gemito population to start believing there are dragons eating people around.
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Sure, the people in GeMiTo realize that dragons are eating people. But good luck getting anyone who isn't in GeMiTo to care about that.
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If Alamais(e) is behind this, he's eating elves. :P
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If Alamais(e) is behind this, he's eating elves. :P
Elves are terrible to eat. They're so light and airy, they're like noshing on a cream pastry. Not at *all* filling. They do make a nice desert, mind you!
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Sichr, you might not be really aware of this, but India is actually one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world today. (All those call centers, see.) We're talking places that a) didn't get the WMI, b) whose regular Matrix services never got kept up and went to crap over the last 25 years, and c) whose telecomm services went to crap over the last 50 years.
Actually I was looking for the picture of telecom lines in Gaza Strip, which Ive seen before, but failed to find it, so Ive posted those pictures to ilustrate the fact that there is good old way to set up wired communication network even in the place wint no wifi coverage.I wont be under any circumstances able to believe taht in 2073 GeMiTo people just forgot how to make communication network, even with low tech devices, and that all those crime organozations are using pigeons to send messages from one part of the area to another...pigeons, wo are perhaps oftenly shot down by dragons.
Also, it would be hard to believe that Capotrenos are working with flashlights and morse code. And also, it would be hard to believe, that there are no technomancers born or emerged in GeMiTo.
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Sichr, you are correct that the mob bosses probably have some means of communicating with the outside world. But they aren't exactly going to bring the world's attention into their neck of the woods, because then who knows what else might be found as people start digging. But anyone who doesn't have mob connections? They are SOL, because someone who is hungry or behind on rent probably stole the cables to sell. The only reason Chicago is a worse hellhole than GeMiTo is because of how messed up the astral is there.
Of course people in GeMiTo haven't forgotten how to communicate (well, those with some level of education haven't, at least). But knowing a method and being able to carry it out are two different things. That's like telling a homeless person with an illness that they should buy health insurance so they can see the doctor. Sure, it sounds nice, but then you have to look at the practical side of things.
Or, to steal a historical quote, "Let them eat cake."
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Next time you will tell me that they dont even have electricity. This aint even funny anymore...
EDIT: As for Chicago...it was those walls with automatic sentry guns set to shot and kill anything that tried to get out of CZ, what made that place such hellhole. There is no such wall in GeMiTo. In fact, Feral City is is talking about heavily guarded operating corporate bases inside that area. Hard to believe that dragons would show any exceptionnsfor those instalations...that would mean showing the weakness, fear or respect to metahumans...
Also, you possibly missed that Capotrenos reference ;)
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Except that dragons are also smart, Sichr. Even in the Earthdawn days, they didn't go around flying into heavily armed camps for a snack. Why bother, when there are plenty of other cattle near at hand, who don't have HMGs handy?
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That was just a test, I wanted to see which part of my post you would pick;)
I know dragons are smart and you are still missing some other points of my posts...aka. those that are not so easily oposed ;)
Ive gived up serious argiumentats on this topic a few posts ago, now Im just havin (bad and sad) fun
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Except that dragons are also smart, Sichr. Even in the Earthdawn days, they didn't go around flying into heavily armed camps for a snack. Why bother, when there are plenty of other cattle near at hand, who don't have HMGs handy?
"OK, I can figure out why we have Anti-Aircraft Cannons hidden around, but why are we disguised as cows?" "Shut up and moo."
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Well, I saw the Capotrenos reference, but since I have no clue what that's talking about, I ignored it.
And no, Chicago is still a hellhole. It wasn't the sentry guns alone that did it, but the sentry guns, lack of resources, bugs running wild, FAB III clouds eating mages and ghouls, and the toxic aftermath of the Cermak blast. Oh, and let's not forget the pollution in the river and lake, and the fact that the Shattergraves were screwing up the astral to such a degree that things were spilling over onto the physical long before the bugs took up residence.
Chicago is the punching bag of North America. The only reason it isn't the number one most hellish spot on Earth not in the middle of an active shooting war is because Africa still exists.
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That was just a test, I wanted to see which part of my post you would pick;)
I know dragons are smart and you are still missing some other points of my posts...aka. those that are not so easily oposed ;)
Ive gived up serious argiumentats on this topic a few posts ago, now Im just havin (bad and sad) fun
No, we're not missing anything. Mostly, what you're saying is self-defeating, so we're mostly ignoring your ... well, apparently non-serious arguments. So at this point? *ignore*
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Hey! I'm the non-serious conspiracy nut here! ;D
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That was just a test, I wanted to see which part of my post you would pick;)
I know dragons are smart and you are still missing some other points of my posts...aka. those that are not so easily oposed ;)
Ive gived up serious argiumentats on this topic a few posts ago, now Im just havin (bad and sad) fun
No, we're not missing anything. Mostly, what you're saying is self-defeating, so we're mostly ignoring your ... well, apparently non-serious arguments. So at this point? *ignore*
Argument invalid...again. First you target my english grammar, with nothing specific in mind, so I dont know what I have to correct or do better. Now you, again, fail to respond anything specific. Also, I love your use of the word "we". Who are you...the Legion? Wyrms are many? We, runners of the world? We, everyone on Forums? We, people connected to the product? Feel free to ignore, since you have nothing else to offer. And dont forget to tell everyone ;)
kids these days :-\
For the Capostrenos reference...When the discussion on GeMiTo begun, Ive re-readed related Feral Cities chapter...just to be sure that when I say something, I would be able to back that with cannon. Is it too much to expect the same from others?
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... ad hominem attacks? I told you - in a response to a now-edited post - that you were making no sense. You just said that your questions weren't serious. Your post in regards to the communications network was filled with hyperbole - including, but not limited, to your question about the Capotrenos. Permit me:
Also, it would be hard to believe that Capotrenos are working with flashlights and morse code. And also, it would be hard to believe, that there are no technomancers born or emerged in GeMiTo.
This is not something I'm going to respond to; it carries with it nothing but sneering sarcasm, offense, and pugnaciousness. You don't want to be convinced, you want to attack, make fun of, and otherwise show how you're better. I don't care if you think I'm better or not; I grok how the SR world works, and I'm willing to listen to other points of view.
GeMiTo is a cesspit, one in which at least thirteen dragons (one Great, the rest adult) are hunting metahumanity as food. Anyone living in GeMiTo is more concerned about living through the day, more concerned about not getting shot and making it to dinner-time (and having something to eat for dinner!!) than they are about a chance that they will be the one among the 33,000+ people who gets eaten that day. 300 meals a day - compare to how many people get shot???
As I've stated before, the dragon-feeding thing is only interesting - or shocking - in the aggregate, and in the fact that it's happening. That it didn't get out for a lousy six months isn't even questionable. Here, let me give you something about a very similar sort of incident - in recent times - in very similar circumstances to those in GeMiTo:
In 2003, Sinafasi Makelo, a representative of Mbuti Pygmies, told the UN's Indigenous People's Forum that during the Congo Civil War, his people were hunted down and eaten as though they were game animals. Both sides of the war regarded them as "subhuman" and some say their flesh can confer magical powers. Makelo asked the UN Security Council to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide.
Understand that the Second Congo Civil War took place from 1998 to 2003, and people didn't know about this until someone came out to the UN. You think six months of 300-a-day depradations, when they've got toxics, bug spirits, paranaturals, and casual violence to worry about, is going to raise an insane panic among the people???
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I thought that this media gag order was imposed because corporations want to avoid panic that would spread if the situation become public knowledge. So yes, I think this situation would raise insane panic...or at least powerholders of the 6th world believe so.
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In fact, Feral City is is talking about heavily guarded operating corporate bases inside that area. Hard to believe that dragons would show any exceptionnsfor those instalations...that would mean showing the weakness, fear or respect to metahumans...
Except that dragons are also smart, Sichr. Even in the Earthdawn days, they didn't go around flying into heavily armed camps for a snack. Why bother, when there are plenty of other cattle near at hand, who don't have HMGs handy?
According to The Clutch of Dragons, "several AA corporations are sending representatives to Saeder-Krupp, pleading with, and in some cases demanding, that the widespread attacks on the sprawl be stopped." If no corporate holdings have been attacked, you got to wonder why would AA megacorporations would bother. Also tell us the information obviously got out, even if it didn't reach the medias.
As I've stated before, the dragon-feeding thing is only interesting - or shocking - in the aggregate, and in the fact that it's happening. That it didn't get out for a lousy six months isn't even questionable. Here, let me give you something about a very similar sort of incident - in recent times - in very similar circumstances to those in GeMiTo:
In 2003, Sinafasi Makelo, a representative of Mbuti Pygmies, told the UN's Indigenous People's Forum that during the Congo Civil War, his people were hunted down and eaten as though they were game animals. Both sides of the war regarded them as "subhuman" and some say their flesh can confer magical powers. Makelo asked the UN Security Council to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide.
Understand that the Second Congo Civil War took place from 1998 to 2003, and people didn't know about this until someone came out to the UN.
But as early as August 1998 or so, governements and medias and the Catholic Church (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/158303.stm) knew there was a war going on, who was involved, the pro-government forces and the Rwanda-backed forces, and that people get killed. Then, yes, nobody outside knew the detail people got eaten before 2003.
But where do you draw the parallel? Governments and medias and the Catholic Churc should know there are militias/dragons inside Congo/Gemito that kill dozens of people everyday, less than a month after the campaign started, and it's just the fact that they eat those people that won't be known before several years has passed?
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Here, let me give you something about a very similar sort of incident - in recent times - in very similar circumstances to those in GeMiTo:
In 2003, Sinafasi Makelo, a representative of Mbuti Pygmies, told the UN's Indigenous People's Forum that during the Congo Civil War, his people were hunted down and eaten as though they were game animals. Both sides of the war regarded them as "subhuman" and some say their flesh can confer magical powers. Makelo asked the UN Security Council to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide.
Understand that the Second Congo Civil War took place from 1998 to 2003, and people didn't know about this until someone came out to the UN.
That is one possibility of how public attention can work. On the other hand, an influential or flashy personality can't fart in the wrong direction without making headlines. Dragons are powerful and flashy...
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As I'm advancing into The Clutch of Dragons, an additional relevant quote from "The War Room" short story. Lofwyr is speaking to an assembly of dragons : " [Alamais and his followers] also have spurned an invitation for an audience with me to discuss matters. I have asked that he and his followers cease the unabashed feeding frenzy they have so blatantly displayed within GeMiTo, where they have put on a public display for the world to witness and resent. [...] Yesterday along my offices in Essen received another hundred calls from local business leaders and government o fficials calling for swift action to stop the violence that is being perpetrated on those metahuman citizens in GeMiTo."
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just LOL
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Thanks nath.
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Here, let me give you something about a very similar sort of incident - in recent times - in very similar circumstances to those in GeMiTo:
In 2003, Sinafasi Makelo, a representative of Mbuti Pygmies, told the UN's Indigenous People's Forum that during the Congo Civil War, his people were hunted down and eaten as though they were game animals. Both sides of the war regarded them as "subhuman" and some say their flesh can confer magical powers. Makelo asked the UN Security Council to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide.
Understand that the Second Congo Civil War took place from 1998 to 2003, and people didn't know about this until someone came out to the UN.
That is one possibility of how public attention can work. On the other hand, an influential or flashy personality can't fart in the wrong direction without making headlines. Dragons are powerful and flashy...
Yes, but the news outlets want to report on celebrities. In this case, the people in charge have likely been told, in no uncertain terms, how very much they should not want to report on things, especially if they enjoyed luxuries like breathing.
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This circle is white
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This circle is white
I'm sorry, I don't understand - what is your point, here?
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1984 reference? When 4 is 5 type stuff? The truth is what we tell you it is?
That said, obviously the newsd did get out despite the grand corporate and co conspiracy. See the quote from Naths post above.
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1984 reference? When 4 is 5 type stuff? The truth is what we tell you it is?
That said, obviously the newsd did get out despite the grand corporate and co conspiracy. See the quote from Naths post above.
Close, but no cigar, Black. That quote means that business leaders and government officials in GeMiTo are calling the S-K office in Essen looking for Lofwyr to smack his brother around again. It doesn't mean that people at large are reacting to it, or know there's a feeding frenzy on.
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Of course, Lofwyr's kind of busy, what with Sirrurg doing what he just did, Hestaby attacking S-K holdings, EuroCorps probing his defenses to see if he's getting distracted from his day job while being the Loremaster, and, oh yeah, Alamais chomping on long pig.
Turnsout that holdingdown two jobs is kinda hard. :)
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That said, obviously the newsd did get out despite the grand corporate and co conspiracy. See the quote from Naths post above.
Close, but no cigar, Black. That quote means that business leaders and government officials in GeMiTo are calling the S-K office in Essen looking for Lofwyr to smack his brother around again. It doesn't mean that people at large are reacting to it, or know there's a feeding frenzy on.
He says "people know" and you answer "people don't care". You can both be right at the same time. It was the entire point of the comparisons to Rwanda, Mexico or whatever to show an information can get out and be spread by medias, and yet cause no or limited reactions from the public opinion.
It has been argued information could be hard to put together. The quote tell us a number of local political and business leaders know and are obviously worried. It has been argued people inside Gemito would lack comunication channels for the information to go out. The quote tell us hundred of them are calling S-K offices in Essen.
Yet, there are no indication the story received any coverage from major media. Do the medias know? The Twilight Horizon states Horizon had hints at what is going on. Saeder-Krupp, as well as a number of AA corporations also have the information, and have or may have medias subsidiaries. I would also expect some of the politicians and businessmen that get no answer from Saeder-Krupp would try to call the medias instead, hoping this could force Lofwyr into action.
Do the medias broadcast the information? That is the first unknown. Unless the Corporate Court acts quickly with a gag order, you probably can't prevent some editor-in-chief to jump on such a story to come ahead in the information race. As I said earlier, I think Aztechnology should find this story useful.
How many people would be exposed to the story? How many people would care? Open to debate. It would depend on if and how fast a gag order comes into effect, if it gets out on the same day that another major event (though in my opinion, none of the last books mentionned any event I would consider big enough to mask this story), and how dystopian is your Shadowrun. At least until a book provides a canon answer to this.
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Oh, there's a really simple reason for why there'd be a gag order in effect. You know which corp is leading the Court's crisis team this term? Saeder-Krupp. Yes, the corp headed by a great dragon is in charge of managing the Corporate Court's response to the dragon civil war.
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It can help, but it's nowhere simple. A committee chairmanship is different from a command. Even in a critical situation such as System Failure, the Crisis Coordination Committee held a session only after the Corporate Court voted, to decide the practical implementation of the decision. Maybe the crash aftermath prompted the court to change how the C5 works, but the committee still ought to feature representatives from several corporations (it wouldn't be a committee otherwise). A chairman has some extra responsabilities that may give him more influence, but he cannot decide alone.
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Yes, the C5 was revamped after System Failure, gaining teeth, and a more... proactive stance to things that harm the business world at large. Note the last phrase there. We're talking about a localized event, that hasn't had any major effect on the megacorps outside the effected area. And you are right that being chairman doesn't give S-K supreme ruler rights, but the fact is that the chairman sets the agenda. And it is easy to argue the rule of precedence. "If we get involved because something nasty is happening in GeMiTo, why not clean up Lagos? Or deal with Chicago? Or respond to every little natural disaster?" Think of the lost profits if the Court responds to every little problem in the world. The C5 is for dealing with major threats, like Winternight, or people like Artie-boy, who are successfully destroying A & AA corps, and working on AAA corps.
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Yes, the C5 was revamped after System Failure, gaining teeth, and a more... proactive stance to things that harm the business world at large.
The Clutch of Dragons does mention page 47 the C5 has been turned into a permanent body after 2064. However, it wouldn't guarantee it became more efficient and effective in any way (even though the 2065-2069 period was somewhat calm, the C5 would have had to grab even minor cases to justify its existence and budget, and those would keep on accumulating over the years). The Clutch of Dragons also mentions page 14 the C5 "has been called to monitor this "dragon situation" for the Corporate Court" (in this context, it's the "dragon situation" at large, not just Alamais). The passive voice suggests the C5 is not acting on its own, but you could also argue the intended meaning was "its current chairman has called the C5 to monitor this "dragon situation"". Or simply that, since it's a Jackpointer comment, it can be dismissed as an uninformed statement (though that can be said of almost everything in the book actually, and it wouldn't leave us much to discuss). Anyway, if the C5 is mandated for all current dragons activities, Alamais' would be in, without any extra step required from the chairman.
We're talking about a localized event, that hasn't had any major effect on the megacorps outside the effected area.
Lobbing a Thor shot at a dragon in Gemito would be dealing with a localized event. Enacting a gag order on information that would affect the public opinion on dragons in medias worldwide is dealing with a global event. But probably not one that should have any major effect on the megacorps.
And you are right that being chairman doesn't give S-K supreme ruler rights, but the fact is that the chairman sets the agenda.
The problem is, there are five other justices that sit on the committee besides the chairman. Even if the chairman decide to add Gemito situation in the agenda, the committee can still decide to do strictly nothing. Common sense would suggest a decision require a simple majority, with the Chairman eventually getting an extra vote when there is a draw. So, he still needs to convince at least two other justices. If it happens that there are a Neonet and a MCT justices on the committee at the moment, it may not be a problem, if Celedyr and Ryumyo supports the move. Otherwise, S-K may have to be more politically-savvy to get the vote going its way. So, anyway, this goes beyond S-K simply having the chairmanship. It does help, but it's not the end of it.
There's a reason it's a committee with several rotating memberships, and not a command. Whatever power you vest into a S-K chairman will be, by the virtue of rotation, in the hands of an Aztechnology chairman at some point. You'd say an Aztechnology C5 chairman wouldn't be left as much leeway as S-K, which means it's not the chairmanship alone that count, but a much more complicated political game behind the scenes.
And it is easy to argue the rule of precedence. "If we get involved because something nasty is happening in GeMiTo, why not clean up Lagos? Or deal with Chicago? Or respond to every little natural disaster?" Think of the lost profits if the Court responds to every little problem in the world. The C5 is for dealing with major threats, like Winternight, or people like Artie-boy, who are successfully destroying A & AA corps, and working on AAA corps.
Exactly. I would actually expect every justices on the committee that doesn't belong to S-K, and possibly Neonet and MCT (that is, between 3 and 5 members, out of 6) to bring such arguments up. The C5 is for lobbing Thor shots at major direct threats for the megacorporate economy (though System Failure mentions a full court vote on Dankwalther). Not for enacting worldwide gag order to prevent the apparition of a possible minor nuisance to a handful of megacorporate shareholders.
By setting such a precedent, S-K is opening the door for the C5 to be (ab)used by any group of three corporations that happen to be on the committee at the same time (alliances such as MCT-Shiawase-Renraku and Ares-Aztechnology-Wuxing comes to mind) for their sole interests. It must be compared to the Corporate Court proper, where 7 votes out of 13 are required to secure a vote. That is, a minimum of four corporations (only if S-K, Ares and MCT, with 2 justices each as of Corporate Guide happens to vote together, and more probably six or seven corporations, out of ten.
Actually, if Lofwyr wanted C5 to be disbanded, that gag order would be the way to go.
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Completely different part of CoD: I'll now be waiting on a meeting between Harlequin and Domingo Ramos . . .
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Be careful what you wish for as you just might get it.
(Insert Pussycat Dolls dance routine here.)
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Ahhhhh . . . wish-fulfilment . . . better than novacoke . . . . <snort>
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As a small observation, if Aztlan/Aztechnology did manage to really annoy the Dragons, it would would not long for the sixth world. Getting the Greats focused and Agrey with you is not a idea for long term health.
It would be kinda cool to see the Dragons go primate on Aztlan back the Mexican rebels as well as start trashing the magical network that the Smoking Mirror has created...
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Burn the entire country to ash. Leave nothing alive.
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What's Aztlan ever done to you? They're just an ordinary nation, wanting to enjoy the fruits of their society, and seeking a resolution to that awful kerfluffle down south. And, you know, eat. Some food would be nice. You wouldn't happen to have a million tons of wheat lying around, would you? For an old pal?
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Burn the entire country to ash. Leave nothing alive.
Raze. Burn. Piss on ashes. Salt the ground.
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What's Aztlan ever done to you? They're just an ordinary nation, wanting to enjoy the fruits of their society, and seeking a resolution to that awful kerfluffle down south. And, you know, eat. Some food would be nice. You wouldn't happen to have a million tons of wheat lying around, would you? For an old pal?
Their existing is enough. Destroying the entire country would be counted as a service to metahumanity and the world at large.
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and somewhere, Verjigorm' is laughing...
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Raze. Burn. Piss on ashes. Salt the ground.
Thanks, now I'm homesick.
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and somewhere, Verjigorm' is laughing...
You mean...
somewhere in Aztlan?
Or
somewhere behind the Mirror?
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and somewhere, Verjigorm' is laughing...
You mean...
somewhere in Aztlan?
Or
somewhere behind the Mirror?
Can't it be both?
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and somewhere, Verjigorm' is laughing...
You mean...
somewhere in Aztlan?
Or
somewhere behind the Mirror?
Can't it be both?
STOP!!!
Ive just came back from the bathroom.
And I think I saw something...
or was it white....
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Burn the entire country to ash. Leave nothing alive.
Raze. Burn. Piss on ashes. Salt the ground.
Yeah, yeah - 'Carthago delenda est' - nothing that hasn't been heard before. :o ::) ;)
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So extreme
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So extreme
Were I a less nice Wak, right about here, I'd link to Buzz Bunny, the EXTREME Loony Toon.
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and somewhere, Verjigorm' is laughing...
You mean...
somewhere in Aztlan?
Or
somewhere behind the Mirror?
Can't it be both?
STOP!!!
Ive just came back from the bathroom.
And I think I saw something...
or was it white....
Well, If Vergiorm feeds on blood, pain and suffering. The bloodshed of a civil war or a war of conquest would be a feast for him. considering how many many more people in the modern world there are compared to the 4th world, it could lead to interesting results...
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and somewhere, Verjigorm' is laughing...
You mean...
somewhere in Aztlan?
Or
somewhere behind the Mirror?
Can't it be both?
STOP!!!
Ive just came back from the bathroom.
And I think I saw something...
or was it white....
Well, If Vergiorm feeds on blood, pain and suffering. The bloodshed of a civil war or a war of conquest would be a feast for him. considering how many many more people in the modern world there are compared to the 4th world, it could lead to interesting results...
I can see that he may be responsible for creating mankind. Everlasting feast...voluntary
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According to dragon mythology, Verjigorm is basically the creator of all the Horrors. One of those Horrors was different, and broke away to find some place untouched by their evil. This was Nightsky, and from its first tears were born the Namegiver races. Of those, Dayheart, the first dragon, rose up and proclaimed her Name, while the others were all given Names by Nightsky. Thus, Dragons consider themselves Nametakers, apart from other Namegiver races.
Verjigorm showed up later, and Nightsky led his children in fighting against him. In the end, Verjigorm was driven off, but Nightsky was mortally wounded in the battle. Verjigorm promised to return, and to hunt the dragons and corrupt them. That is why Verjigorm is known as the Hunter of Great Dragons. In Earthdawn's time, there were several dragons who had been captured by Verjigorm, and were being corrupted in astral space by his power. While the Dragons certainly tried to destroy as many of the creatures as possible, and others probably died during the down-cycle hunting, it is not inconceivable that some survived. Which would explain the Smoking Mirror...
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Ive heard that story. It aslo means that Verjigorm is original creator of all life...and death. Also...if the cycle is what it is...The Cycle...we are all moving towards the Great Father`s embrace in the end. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust...
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So, going by the hints in that hidden fiction, it appears that Sirrurg got blasted by the Azzies, and at least wounded. The dragons are fighting eachother in GeMiTo, probably as part of the whole "Lofwyr wants his brother dead" thing. That begs the question, what about Hestaby?
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70/30 she's in with Lofwyr on that one, as part of a deal to turn the actual worst offender of the Great Dragons, Alamais (forgive me, home from work, brain fried - it IS Alamais, right?), over to metahuman courts. Sirrurg gets a pass, insofar as he can be given one. Aztlan is pissed, but can't do much more than they have.
If I were the Great Dragons, I'd formally and officially form a nation amongst themselves - or a titular corporation, with sufficient 'shared assets' to acquire a AA rating. Base the idea off the Geiminschaft Bank / Corporate Court ... and suddenly you have a whole bunch of Great Dragons as individuals with functional immunity from prosecution in any country that's a signatory of the business accords.
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Hmm. I don't know if the dragons could get along well enough for that to work. Looking at dragon politics makes Ares seem like one big happy family.
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Aztechnology is the only corp that likely had more than one dragon in a position of power. Of, for certain, there are several lesser dragons that are employed by corps, but more than one Great is, well...
It doesn't end well.
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Indeed. The whole reason dragons have such a complicated culture is because that is what it takes to keep them from killing eachother off.
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Rhonabwy actually owns some 4% of Ares Macrotechnology, and Hestaby gave Arthur Vogel a part of the money he needed to buy Aurelius shares. Between 2060 and 2064, there was even three great dragons involved in Ares Macrotechnology management, since Nadja Daviar was following the instructions of a "seven years plan" left to her by Dunkelzahn regarding Ares.
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Note where he said 'position of power'. Being a significant shareholder doesn't count. Celedyr has a position of power at NeoNET. Lofwyr has a position of power at Saeder-Krupp. The Smoking Mirror has a position of power at Aztechnology. Other dragons might have influence in the megas, but a position of influence is not the same as a position of power.
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Depends on your definition of "power".
As the director of research of Neonet, Celedyr is bound to obey to Chief Executive Officer Richard Villiers, and all his activities are overseen by the board chaired by Anders Malmstein. Yet he has power, or so are we told.
The Smoking Mirror doesn't even officially have a status. Oscuro and the High Priest of Tezcatlipoca were board members. As far as their status go, they had the same powers than any other of the shareholders. The dragons of Aztechnology? The two that have been mentioned were also "only" board members. And it is doubtful, to say the least, that Dunkelzahn actually had any pull over Aztechnology actions as such.
Arthur Vogel was a major shareholder and had the board vote him director of AresSpace. As such, he has power, but it relies entirely on the money Hestaby and the Pueblo gave him. Hestaby can have way more than a mere "influence" over him. If she asks him for something, I don't think he can refuse.
There are less information on Rhonabwy position inside Ares. A 4 to 5% stake in a corporation is usually enough to get a representative elected to the board (even if we were never given more than a handful of name sitting on Ares board).
When California was falling into pieces, Ares supported militias in northern California that played no actual role with regards to the San Francisco situation, but prevented any attempt from Tir Tairngire to expend further south. Which was perfectly in line with both Hestaby and Rhonabwy objectives.
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To be fair, the names of the other Ares board members has never been given because it's also been held that most if not all of them are Damien Knight's yes-men.
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Yet, Vogel and Aurelius were able to have Paul Graves recalled and Michele Borden replacing him on the Corporate Court, in spite of Damien Knight opposition. The whole "civil war" at Ares implies there are now enough swing voters on the board for such thing to happen.
Rhonabwy or his representative is quite likely to play such a role: I doubt Knight, Vogel or the Draco Foundation would have enough leverage over a great dragon to force him to vote a certain way on a regular basis.
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True. So that's not to say it can be expected for them to remain anonymous. It's just that there was an excuse not to bother for a long time.
The largest shareholders plus Rhonabwy own about 65% of Ares, so it stands to reason that there could be a great deal of play to influence the remaining 35%.
This isn't my wheelhouse, save for my interjection of Seraphim shenanigans, so that's about the extent of my knowledge. I know that per canon that Gavilan Ventures has two board seats (Daviar and Aurelius), but nothing else about how seats are apportioned.
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My suggestion, however, is not nullified. No Great Dragon would have any significant leverage over any other; the Great Dragon Corporation (GDC) would be, for all intents and purposes, a front. A very sizeable, very significant front company, I agree, but a front company nonetheless. Consider the history of the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank.
Seven corporations, heavily in debt to the most significant world lender, get together and perform a buyout upon the bank. The bank winds up having so much capital and influence via its shareholding corporations, it can functionally declare new nations (in the form of multinational AA-rated corporations) the world over, nations which other, actual nations, are required to recognize - and recognize the extraterritoriality of. In this way, those Big 7 essentially made the leap from 'really big fraggin' company' to 'independent corporate nation-state'. They may now be the Big 10, but they still a) possess strictly equal shares in the corporation that gives them authority (i.e. ZOG), and b) are still generally at odds with each other. Consider the chances of Saeder-Krupp cooperating with Aztechnology ...
... then realize that at a certain level, in very restricted ways, they do so on a day-to-day basis.
That's the sort of thing I think the Great Dragons might realize they need to do in order to survive and thrive in the modern world. Oh, great dragons are incredibly powerful, and most if not all of them have amazing amounts of corporate holdings and influence, but in the larger scheme of things, that does not eliminate their functional vulnerability to what Sirrurg faces - a direct challenge to a right they've had all their lives, of being apart and above metahuman laws. In the Second Age, the dragons ruled completely, incontestably. In the Fourth Age, the dragons no longer ruled, but could act with relative impunity, and answered to no law but their own. Now, in the Sixth Age, humanity's rapid development of technology and increasing knowledge of magic means that even at this early stage, in less than half a decade (incredibly swiftly in the eyes of a GD) an act which would have gone unanswered in the 4th Age has earned a Great Dragon injuries, perhaps serious ones. The ephemerals have got very real and very dangerous teeth.
Doing this isn't the only way, I'm sure, for Great Dragon society to establish itself as a seperate entity, beholden primarily to their own laws, but it is the swiftest, most sure way to use metahuman laws against metahumanity in the establishment of the rights and untouchability of the Great Dragons. Like the megacorporations, they don't have to agree to most things - only to this one little sub-section of things.
But if they manage it, watch out ...
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Actually, that sounds like the kind of thing Hestaby would propose. The problem being that the conservative traditionalists on the council would never listen to such a plan.
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While I feel that it's precisely the sort of thing that Lofwyr would realize he's already doing, and if he wants to preserve draconic society in even roughly the form it is, he's going to have to propose it incorporates. :P
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Yes, but Lofwyr is above all else an independent loner. He does not ask for help, hates cooperating, and believes in Survival of the Fittest. He has just been able to show most clearly through the years Shadowrun's been around that he is, or is more often than not).
The thing about dragons and great dragons is that they are ancient, and slow to change. The corporation, even modern nation-states, are relatively new creations in their lifetimes. They were asleep for 95% of the existence of democracy, so introducing representative governance and consent of the governed and the Rule of Law (which is to an extent the basis of the corporation, so this isn't a complete tangent) are as new to them as it was to a Russian who was alive to see the October Revolution and then watched the Christmas dissolution of the USSR announced.
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This isn't my wheelhouse, save for my interjection of Seraphim shenanigans, so that's about the extent of my knowledge. I know that per canon that Gavilan Ventures has two board seats (Daviar and Aurelius), but nothing else about how seats are apportioned.
Well, I guess getting into the details of how corporate governance actually works would not appeal to the audience.
Nowadays, most corporations' board elections are completely locked by the board itself. Ahead of the stockholders meeting, the board gives its "recommended" list of nominees, with as many candidates as seats (as you mgiht expect, most of the time, it's the list of the uncumbent board members).
Stockholder can propose additional nominee. The bylaws also often gives the board ways to dismiss 'non-representative' candidate that they consider unlikely to gather a significant numbers of votes.
During the meeting, the stockholders cast their vote on any number of candidates they want. It is pretty common for corporate bylaws to states stockholders who don't cast an absentee ballot or attend the meeting are counted as voting following the board recommandation for the board nominees.
- If the number of candidates is the same than the number of seats up for election, those who get a majority of votes are elected.
- If the number of candidates exceed the number of seats, those who got the most vote (even if it less than the majority) are elected.
Since stockholders can vote for any number of candidates, it is possible to have a board entirely elected by a single faction.
So most of the time, the real deal is one ahead. One or several major stockholders with a blocking minority (usually set as one third of the stock) will threaten to use that power to make the entire election null, and require the board to nominate and promote one or several candidates of their choice. They can even get a Shareholder Agreement that officially gives them the power to nominate one or several candidates on the board's list.
Board conflicts like those of Shadowrun usually only happens when one or several stockholders have such Shareholder Agreements who guarantee them a seat. Otherwise, corporate elections rather are the "winner-takes-all" type.
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Yes, but Lofwyr is above all else an independent loner. He does not ask for help, hates cooperating, and believes in Survival of the Fittest. He has just been able to show most clearly through the years Shadowrun's been around that he is, or is more often than not).
Though I agree on your 'reaction level' of dragons, I disagree on your analysis of Lofwyr; he is not an independent loner. He has gathered about himself the largest corporation in the world, and it is not even the entirety of his realm of influence and command. He is in a position of power, or at least influence, in regards to the rest of dragonkind, and possesses access to some of the most critical and important information gathered by past Loremasters. Lofwyr isn't an independent loner; he's a dominating personality. He doesn't want solitude or quiet, to act and survive on his own, or adverse to cooperation; he wants people to command, armies to order, chess pieces to move, and puppets to dance. He wants to be the center of the universe, Master and Commander, he who orders the music of the spheres.
He's not the physically strongest great dragon. He's not the mystically strongest great dragon. He isn't the most charming, or even (probably) the most intelligent - though he might be that. He's the great dragon with the most determination to make things the way he wants them to be. He's what Xanatos wants to be when he grows up, because even when he loses, he gains something of value out of the encounter.
All this said, and knowing the 'rate of change' of a Great Dragon, I believe (on admittedly thin evidence) that Lofwyr is changing. Hestaby may have won the Rite, but it was also indicated that Lofwyr is studying up on the actions, reasons, and consequences of certain deceased Great Dragons. Lofwyr also has what's probably the most exposed power-base in the world, which means he has the biggest target painted on his back if it comes down to an Us vs. Them proposition. He wasn't around during the Business Accords bit, but he was clever enough to use that information to leverage himself into being the single biggest individual player - and player in general - at that particular board.
Furthermore, Hestaby is looking at cooperation, and in a way appeasement; this doesn't fit with forming a 'dragon nation'. Lofwyr is/would be looking at self-defense and using the weapons of the enemy against them, as it were.
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If dragons weren`t able or willing to form some kind of united front or "Dragon Nation", when they were facing Horrors, Scourge and total anihilation of species all over the planet, the strongest "external threat" ever, I don`t think that there is anything in 6th world that forces them to do so.
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Indeed, it takes a lot to get the dragons to agree to do anything as a united front. In fact, there were only a few cases in the Fourth World where that happened. Notable cases would be the Council that threw the Outcast out of draconic society for breeding children with humans, and the Council where the dragons had decided they'd had enough of the Therans in Barsaive. As part of their actions on that second one, four Great Dragons (including both Dunkelzhan and Ghostwalker) got together at a major power site and did ritual magic to bring down serious calamity on the Theran city of Vivien. Yes, that's four Great Dragons getting together to do what even they considered to be high level ritual magic. This is what happens when dragons decide someone has become too big an annoyance to deal with piecemeal any more.
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He wasn't around during the Business Accords bit, but he was clever enough to use that information to leverage himself into being the single biggest individual player - and player in general - at that particular board
Technically he was. Lofwyr took over Saeder-Krupp around 2035 or 2036 ; the Business Recognition Accords were proposed for ratification in 2042.
However, the BRA were only the last step in making the Corporate Court recognized as the supreme authority over extraterritorial megacorporations. The Inter-corporate Council in 2013 was merely an "initiative" from seven ambitious corporations to establish a new international arbitration body specialized on extraterritorial issues. It failed spectacularly, and the same corps went for second try with the Corporate Court in 2023. Between 2023 and 2042, the Corporate Court went to become the reference arbitration for all extraterritorial corporations. I guess it probably helped that a number of bigger rival corporations probably tanked during the economical crisis that followed the 2029 crash, while Fuchi and Renraku were to become the powerhouses of the new Matrix.
I'd rule out that Lofwyr simply was lucky enough for one of those seven corporations who were building the new world order to be headquartered right next to the place he fell asleep at the end of the Fourth Age. It is more likely that during the early years of the Sixth Age, Lofwyr first thought on a territorial basis, like everyone's used to do during the Fourth Age (and most of the Fifth, to be fair). And so did he invest into BMW which was in his mind the local powerhouse.
There probably were several others groups like the inter-corporate council/corporate court that we never hears about because they failed to take the top spot. Possibly, the corporate court was the successful one precisely because it was the one that involved the corporation Lofwyr choose to invest in (also maybe Ryumyo connection to MCT ; Dunkelzahn came late to the party, using Damien Knight to take over Ares Macrotechnology in 2033).
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Found something which reminded me of this thread: Java Applet showing how rumors spread (http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/models/RumorMill). In other words, showing what does not happen, because the authors assume that Italy is close to the Congo and the Azzies loathe to decry dragon attacks :D
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GeMiTo's been a European Congo since SoE, and the Azzies have enough dragon problems of their own to sell to the public, but sure, your ad hominem works too.
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Yeah, and for the Azzies' purposes, selling their own dragon troubles is much more profitable than dealing with dragon troubles practically in Lofwyr's back yard. With their problems, they can cast it as a fight for survival, blah blah blah. With GeMiTo, it comes off as a thinly veiled attack against S-K.
And yes, no one really cares what goes on in GeMiTo, so long as it stays in GeMiTo. People would rather think about the price of fuel going up .2 nuyen than thousands of people dying in some place far away.
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And the Azzies have someone else fighting their PR fight against Lofwyr/S-K in Eurasia for them.
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GeMiTo's been a European Congo since SoE, and the Azzies have enough dragon problems of their own to sell to the public, but sure, your ad hominem works too.
A European Congo as far as conditions of living and legislative power go, sure. None of which changes the fact that word-of-mouth spreads rapidly even without permeative computing, and certainly does not get slower with it...
@Mirikon: So the Azzies want to paint their dragon troubles as a fight for survival, and therefore do not want to report dragons indiscriminately feeding on humans. Riiight, if X want to paint their fight against Y as just cause, they would never emphasize a mass murder committed by Y. No party involved in a war would ever use real or made-up atrocities for propaganda...
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@Mirikon: So the Azzies want to paint their dragon troubles as a fight for survival, and therefore do not want to report dragons indiscriminately feeding on humans. Riiight, if X want to paint their fight against Y as just cause, they would never emphasize a mass murder committed by Y. No party involved in a war would ever use real or made-up atrocities for propaganda...
You're missing the point, Sengir. The Azzies don't care about drumming up sympathy for victims of dragons around the world, they care about drumming up support for Aztlan/Aztechnology as they are troubled by dragons. Propagandizing Sirrurg's actions in Aztlan focuses sympathy (and the nuyen and PR support that comes with it) on Aztlan/Aztechnology. Propogandizing Alamais's actions in GeMiTo focuses sympathy on GeMiTo. The Azzies don't have a problem with dragons, generally. They have a problem with dragons that stand in their way. Even the Azzies haven't tried something as stupid as declaring war on all dragons. They are quite cleverly focusing the public's attention on Sirrurg (and Ghostwalker, when they can), using them as an excuse to develop weapons that would, coincidentally, be quite useful if turned against other Great Dragons, such as Lofwyr. If they declared war on dragons generally, that would force the other dragons to get into the fight. Did no one ever teach you the old axiom "divide and conquer"?
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Srry for this, well we have a say here, that would translate to something like:
Sourcebook: Shit a brick!
True believers: Look! A Brick. And it is made of gold. Ummm. And so tasty...
This discussion is full of demagogy and IMO lack ability to admit there are some mistakes. Such things happen. The book is good. Slightly above the average but not really bad. Almost useless IMO for GM so its mainly the source of fluff to add a flavour to the campaign, and as such, it works. There are flaws, well it is nothing even close to WAR! so I can live with that. Since the situation looks like gets resolved later in 5th ed, I am about to forget the foreplay as it never happened, and focus on the bigger picture.
IMO its time to move forwad for everyone, since we are beating the same dead horse for the 5th time in this thread. That Java applet is realy good. If it was used in the research phase, we may never had this conversation IMO.
Lessons learned.
Case closed.
At least for me.
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Propogandizing Alamais's actions in GeMiTo focuses sympathy on GeMiTo.
Alamais and Sirrurg are obviously working together, as evidenced by their wanton disregard for metahuman life. And all the powers of the world are standing by, except Aztechnology, who have taken the fight back to the monster, and vowed not to rest until all have been held accountable
Propaganda does not care about the truth, but it gets much more effective when using a verifiable and drastic event as a hook.
Also, what Sichr said